Liberty Industrial Spur - Printable Version

Liberty Industrial Spur - Printable Version

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Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - Mike Kieran - 10-31-2011

Thanks Brakie. I figured to keep it simple and easy. I also designed this to fit on a 96x12 inch layout that folds into two 48x12 halves.

[Image: 6299518474_6a5489cb93_b.jpg]

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - Justinmiller171 - 10-31-2011

Brakie Wrote:I want to much for my limited space.So,now,I'm reviewing all my options and the best route to take.

I think I do have your problem, at least I was able to get track laid and was able to operate, I now know a whole lot more about what I want, I still like the ISL, I just want a smaller one, I am also not concerned with getting the "perfect" plan anymore.

BTW, I am not interested in creating an extremely portable layout, just one that small enough that it can be moved once or twice, a 2-foot wide HCD is portable enough.

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - FCIN - 10-31-2011

Justinmiller171 Wrote:
Brakie Wrote:I want to much for my limited space.So,now,I'm reviewing all my options and the best route to take.
I think I do have your problem, at least I was able to get track laid and was able to operate, I now know a whole lot more about what I want, I still like the ISL, I just want a smaller one, I am also not concerned with getting the "perfect" plan anymore.

Very easy to fall in to the "too much in too little space" syndrome. I've had to rethink the number of industries on my own ISL a couple of times along with what the industries should be and the types of cars that they could realistically receive. For instance, I currently feel there is no need to have both a warehouse and the food service distributor; they both would receive box cars, but the food service distributor has a much better variety of car types and spot locations. I'm finding that having two industries that require switching daily, along with a couple of smaller "now and then" industries and off-line customers, is a pretty good mixture.

Justinmiller171 Wrote:BTW, I am not interested in creating an extremely portable layout, just one that small enough that it can be moved once or twice, a 2-foot wide HCD is portable enough.

I think you've answered my number one question. I was getting the impression that you suddenly felt like you had to build a small portable layout and if that was the case, I'd sure do something like what Stein and Mike have suggested, rather than have to deal with trying to transport a 24in X 80in HCD.

Since you don't seem to really need to make the layout portable, then why not make the best use of the bench work you already have in place? Like Mike, (hey, that rhymes) I think that the removable staging track or cassette takes away from the scenery aspect, as when you're switching the first industry on your plan and the team track, the train is actually out of the scene most of the time. Makes me think of some one "behind the curtain" that reaches out and moves something on the stage, then disappears behind the curtain again.

I would suggest using the two HCD's that are butted together and add non rail served industries and maybe some general type scenery on the staging end like this:

Filename: JustinMiller01.jpg Size: 38.2 KB Today, 01:28 AM

Doing this, the train is always in the scenic area and the use of the non rail served industries gives you that concrete canyon look and helps to disguise the staging area - just as what alcanman has done with his Palmetto Spur. You could get this plan to a reasonable state of completeness in a very short time, just using structure mockups for all the buildings. If the plan suits you, then you could gradually replace the mockup's with permanent structures. Good projects to work on at school when you have time.

When laying the track, keep in mind the location of the joint between the two HCD's so that should you wish to move the layout, then you could take it apart at that point to move it in two sections.

As an after thought, the other HCD you currently have in place, could be used as a work bench or storage area for your equipment. If that won't fly, then just remove that part and go with the longer section.

The "Palmetto Spur" track plan, as simple as it looks, actually provides a lot of prototypical operation; at least as much or more than your current track plan. The majority of real industrial spurs pretty much all have a resemblance to the "Palmetto Spur" plan - just some would have more industries packed in to the available space while others might have less. Plenty of real life examples out there.

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - Brakie - 10-31-2011

Justinmiller171 Wrote:
Brakie Wrote:I want to much for my limited space.So,now,I'm reviewing all my options and the best route to take.

I think I do have your problem, at least I was able to get track laid and was able to operate, I now know a whole lot more about what I want, I still like the ISL, I just want a smaller one, I am also not concerned with getting the "perfect" plan anymore.

BTW, I am not interested in creating an extremely portable layout, just one that small enough that it can be moved once or twice, a 2-foot wide HCD is portable enough.

I think in my case it was over planing due to scale which of course is N and I got carried away which is easy to do in this scale..Six feet is still a lot of space if correctly planned in N Scale..

A mere seven foot would give me this in HO.Problem is finding the extra foot in my alloted space for either scale...

[Image: HO7Plan2.jpg]

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - Green_Elite_Cab - 10-31-2011

If it just needs to be "semi portable", then just build it in two halves, bolted together. You can use bolts, washers and wing nuts to bolt on the legs, and then build "normal" benchwork on type (aka the HCDs). you can diassemble it when necessary, but it will still be built heavy enough to be semi permanent.

That seems to be the consensus by the other members of the forum as well.

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - Justinmiller171 - 10-31-2011

FCIN Wrote:I think that the removable staging track or cassette takes away from the scenery aspect, as when you're switching the first industry on your plan and the team track, the train is actually out of the scene most of the time. Makes me think of some one "behind the curtain" that reaches out and moves something on the stage, then disappears behind the curtain again.

That's not much of a problem for me, I could always add some basic scenery to the cassette to help it blend in.

I do like Ed's other plan, I will have to give it some thought.

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - steinjr - 10-31-2011

Justinmiller171 Wrote:BTW, I am not interested in creating an extremely portable layout, just one that small enough that it can be moved once or twice, a 2-foot wide HCD is portable enough.

Mmm - the great thing about hollow core doors (HCDs) is that you quickly can set up benchwork for a layout big enough for continuous run loop with forgiving radii on a single HCD in N scale. Or that you fairly quickly can put up benchwork for a larger layout, since each section will be fairly large, and you thus would need fewer sections. It is good for getting the tracks up fast.

Of course any layout made in sections can be moved. But it is significantly easier to move smaller sections than larger sections.

A length of 80" ( 6 2/3rds foot) makes a sections harder transport. If you want to move such a section to a new place, you for all practical purposes need an enclosed trailer pulled behind a car, or a van or small moving truck. Sections 4 feet long or so and not too deep (say 15-18" deep) can easily be transported in the trunk or back seat of a standard car. Or put another way - a HCD can be moved along with the rest of your belongings when you move to a new home, but it is not easy to take along to a friend for a weekend of model railroading, or to take back to your parents house during a college summer break.

Also, the bigger each section is, the harder it is to fit a layout consisting of several such sections into a new room. A 10-foot or 12 foot long wall is too short for two 6 2/3rd foot sections (it would take 160" - 13 1/3rd foot for two HDC lengths), a 10 foot long wall will fit two 4-foot sections and a transition section, while a 12 foot long wall will fit three 4-foot sections (or one could make sections slightly shorter than 4-feet long - say 47" instead of 48" long, giving you a little more leeway).

As for depth - for the style of railroading you are considering - just a few tracks deep at most, 24" of depth and 80" of length it gives you a pretty high scenery to rail ratio. We tend to run out of length long before we run out of depth on linear style layouts. Longer and less deep tends to give you more railroading relative to the amount of scenery. Being able to add length is almost always desirable.

If having enough time for finishing a layout is a concern, I am not sure that the apparent time savings of just plopping down a HCD instead of quickly building two small sections will be a bigger saving than the time needed to landscape the deeper section.

A single HCD gives you 13 square feet of surface area, while two 15" x 4 foot sections you you 10 square feet of surface area. Using two 15" x 4 foot sections gives you 20% more length than a single HCD, while using only 76% of the surface area. Comparing more sections, using two 24" x 80" HCDs vs three 15" x 4-foot sections - with the two HCDs you do get 11% more length (160" vs 144"), but you will also have to scenic 73% more surface area (26 square feet vs 15 square feet).

Building simple section bases is not really so hard that it makes sense to shy away from it, All it takes is a handsaw, a battery operated drill/screwdriver, a knife and a little glue to build a couple of simple sections (illustrations below show the start of a previous sectional layout 20" deep, 7 feet of length - i.e. of a size comparable to a HCD):

[Image: DSCN1837.JPG]

These are all reasons for why I question whether it really is a smart move to stay with the 24" x 80" HCDs if your main concerns are lack of available time to build a layout, the wish to have more railroading using less space, and the wish to be able to easily take the layout with you to new place.

Mind you - I am absolutely not saying that it always is a bad idea to build layout bases rapidly using hollow core doors. They are very good for their uses.

And, as always - your layout - you are the sole lord and ruler, and get to make whatever decisions you want :-)

Smile,
Stein, who should be heading back to bed instead of surfing the net :-)

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - Green_Elite_Cab - 10-31-2011

why are you using a cassette anyway?

On top of the aesthetic draw backs, its more complex than just building a straight continuous layout table. Are you really going to build and switch out all of these "cassettes" all the time? how many freight cars do you own? Do you have a plan for building these cassettes?

continuing the layout, rather than using removable cassettes, would be more reliable, and probably a little safer for the trains. I can't imagine that setting the cars on the track by hand would be any trickier than a cassette. At the very least, a "rix Railer" could assist you if you want to smoothly set cars on the tracks.

I understand that you're trying to reduce space and size, but the detachable cassette may be over compensating.

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - Justinmiller171 - 10-31-2011

Well, after thinking for awhile I realised that I should keep building on this layout, I will wait awhile until I really know what I want to do before building another layout.

BTW, I am going to a train show on November 13th, is there anything essential (such as tools) I should look for there?

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - paulus_jas - 11-01-2011

hi,
A simple cassette, build with two aluminium L-profiles and a piece of wood, can be done in a few minutes. The shopping will take most of the time.
I heard it before, a fear for the saw; a new generation of modellers who have never used their hands in woodworking, shying away for every carpenter's job.
The main reason for a cassette is space. While the permanent layout is before a wall, you can place a cassette temporarily before a door or window you prefer to keep clear of model railroad activities when your room is needed for other purposes.
Keep smiling
Paul

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - Russ Bellinis - 11-01-2011

If you have the hollow core door and want to make 2 @39 3/4 inch x 24 inch sections, it is easy if you do it before you put down track and scenery permanently. Just cut your door in half, and glue a 2x2 spacer into each open end. You might want to use some finishing nails or screws through the door into the 2x2 to ho9ld it for the glue to dry, but I don't think it is necessary if you let the doors sit for 24 hours to let the glue set up and cure completely.

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - Green_Elite_Cab - 11-01-2011

paulus_jas Wrote:hi,
A simple cassette, build with two aluminium L-profiles and a piece of wood, can be done in a few minutes. The shopping will take most of the time.
I heard it before, a fear for the saw; a new generation of modellers who have never used their hands in woodworking, shying away for every carpenter's job.
The main reason for a cassette is space. While the permanent layout is before a wall, you can place a cassette temporarily before a door or window you prefer to keep clear of model railroad activities when your room is needed for other purposes.
Keep smiling
Paul

I wouldn't say its the fear of a saw or wood working, at least in my case (I cut and built everything when I was 14).

My concern isn't so much building the main part of the cassette as it is getting it to solidly attach and line up to the layout. I'm sure it can be done, since it is done on layouts all the time. However, you now would have additional concerns of making something that no only lines up accurately with the tracks every time you switch the cassette out, but also is powered (and can stay reliably powered) since the locomotive would need to use the cassette tracks as a switching lead. Because it is used as a lead, it has to be PERFECT everytime it is attached, which can be asking a lot.

Ultimately, the train would spend almost all its time on the cassette, with just a few cars reaching off of it to switch the right-most industries on the layout. You wouldn't really get a good view of a locomotive between to aluminum angles.

Again, not that its impossible, but is it necessary? The cassette adds extra variables that could affect the reliability (and therefore the fun) of operating the layout, despite being space to build the layout across in this instance.

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - paulus_jas - 11-01-2011

hi
yes, just as complicated as connecting a snap-track and plugging in an electrical cord.
You do not even have to attach the tracks permanently to the cassette.
The question is different however. If you have a 8x1 layout board you can use just half of it without a cassette;
the Palmetto spur is a great example.
With a cassette the whole length is available. Arguments like, you can hardly see the engine are weird, unless your tracks are above eye-level.
The engine being on the non-modelled part (the cassette) often is true, adding some facing spurs (and perhaps a runaround) near the cassette and having most of the trailing spurs at the other side could be the solution.
Don't get me wrong, if someone like Lance Mindheim uses a cassette on his East Rail layout, a cassette seems something to think about at least. Which does not necessarily mean it is your cup of tea.
Without seeing the room or space where the layout is build, not knowing time and financial issues, plans are hard to judge.
One of the posters mentioned building the cassette would take to much of his precious time. If this really is true, building a very small layout could be the answer; the moment you start surrounding the drill track with a brick or concrete canyon, it will cost you many more hours. Beside the engine being not very visible behind the buildings as well.
It is about finding the balance, you seem to fear the cassette, i do not. The question should be: "what can a cassette do for you?" The answer might differ a lot depending on your or my givens and druthers.
Smile
Paul

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - Green_Elite_Cab - 11-01-2011

paulus_jas Wrote:hi
yes, just as complicated as connecting a snap-track and plugging in an electrical cord.

There is more to it then just that. You actually have to be able to mount the cassette level and stably. Rail joiners are hardly reliable for connectivity, and dont' really keep tracks aligned that well either. A plug is a reasonable solution, but still.

I can see that Lance Mindheim uses a clamp to attach the cassette, and probably some other bits. If that works, fantastic. still, it adds additional ways things can go wrong, with very little necessity.

Quote:The question is different however. If you have a 8x1 layout board you can use just half of it without a cassette;
the Palmetto spur is a great example.
With a cassette the whole length is available.

or you could have several semi-mobile sections, each only a few feet long that can be bolted together when "unpacked". No one is stuck with 8' exactly, its not all that hard to cut lumber to fit! If you had to make a weird 3' section to fill in, it wouldn't be to much trouble.

Quote: Arguments like, you can hardly see the engine are weird, unless your tracks are above eye-level.
The engine being on the non-modelled part (the cassette) often is true, adding some facing spurs (and perhaps a runaround) near the cassette and having most of the trailing spurs at the other side could be the solution.

As i understood it, most cassettes had high walls on the side to protect the trains from toppling over the sides. Even if you built the cassette a little wide so that you can see more than the roofs and the upper regions, the bottom line is that its not really an exciting location on the layout. its "behind the curtain", in staging.

I can see where you might think I'm biased, since I prefer taking pictures of my trains at track level, but still, a longer table area would negate these concerns.

Quote:Don't get me wrong, if someone like Lance Mindheim uses a cassette on his East Rail layout, a cassette seems something to think about at least. Which does not necessarily mean it is your cup of tea.

Removable staging cassettes are great when they are practical. They offer a high staging volume for a low area, and minimize the actual handling of railcars and locomotives.

However, Is that really the case? Is there a need for lots of staging? Would it be that much of a hassle to set the train on the track by hand? What are you loosing when you use a cassette instead of just continuing the table?

In the case of Lance Mindheim's layout, he only has one industry on the whole track plan that necessitates the locomotives and cars be switched in from the staging cassette. the rest of the time, he has his trains elsewhere on the layout, which is large enough for the whole train to get off the cassette and stay that way while operating the layout. He also has a lot of highly detailed and custom painted cars that he may not want to physically grab all the time. Removable cassettes allow him to store large numbers of cars without ever handling them directly when taking them on and off the layout. these are a great advantage and a fantastic reason to use removable staging cassettes.

However, Justin's layout is much smaller, and it is a matter of preference if he feels he can handle his cars and locomotives. Though removable staging is certainly a viable solution, the question comes in as to whether or not a cassette is 100% necessary. It cuts into the model real-estate, where the lead track area could be sceniced with buildings, road ways, trees, and other items. Since the train on his layout would be mostly on the right hand side of the layout, it makes more sense to me to expand the model railroad in that direction, rather than ending it with a trestle over the edge of the "world".

Quote:Without seeing the room or space where the layout is build, not knowing time and financial issues, plans are hard to judge.

Well, in this case, we know he has at least 13'. even so, no one is quite sure where they will end up, so who could say that the layout would fit even with the staging cassette?

Quote:One of the posters mentioned building the cassette would take to much of his precious time. If this really is true, building a very small layout could be the answer; the moment you start surrounding the drill track with a brick or concrete canyon, it will cost you many more hours. Beside the engine being not very visible behind the buildings as well.

Or he could build a parking lot, road, or small stand of trees. there is no need to build a crammed industrial park or block the view. However, the extra space would give him the option if he chooses to do that. a larger modeling area allows more freedom. a cassette gives no options. its a stick of track cantilevered on the edge of the layout.

besides, a cassette probably wouldn't take up a whole lot of time to build, depending on how many he made. In this way, he probably could save time and money using the removable cassettes, but at a cost to model real-estate.

Quote:It is about finding the balance, you seem to fear the cassette, i do not. The question should be: "what can a cassette do for you?" The answer might differ a lot depending on your or my givens and druthers.
Smile
Paul

Its not a question of fear, but one of necessity. Do the requirements in this instance call for a removable staging cassette? I do not think so. A more complete model railroad scene can be had if the layout is built in two or three short sections that equal the roughly 10' presented in the "cassette plan" on page 4 of the thread.

Given the available space, the cassette takes up a large area (in that it is just a thin stick of track and that the areas surrounding it cannot be used for modeling purposes, unless you get creative, such as modeling a car-float).

There is no large fleet of cars, and so far as i can tell, no major need to be "hands off", but again this is a matter of preference. If he doesn't mind picking the locomotive and four cars up and setting them on the track before the "start" of the session, then the need for a removable cassette begins to evaporate.

Meanwhile, the cassette could be a location of irregularity and change, which could agitate sensitive model railroad equipment and cause reliability issues if the cassette and its mating surfaces are not well built.

besides, it would probably take more work and carpentry to build layout table sections than to build a few cassettes. fear of carpentry or wood working is not part of the equation.

Re: Liberty Industrial Spur - Mike Kieran - 11-01-2011

I think that the semantics of cassette vs. scenery is a matter of personal taste. I just don't like them, plain and simple. I would prefer a drop down scenery platform. If others like them, so be it. It's your layout and that's it.

Brakie, for 7 feet by 15 inches, here's what I got for you in HO:

[Image: 6302685041_9b9e25dd0a_b.jpg]