Help with HO Scale Helix design

[Trucklover]

If your trains are relatively short, have you considered a set of switchbacks as opposed to a helix?

Switchbacks huh? Thats an interesting idea i had not previously thought about. Thanks for the suggesttion, ill write that down in my notes and toss it around in the mix with the Helix and Elevator idea from Russ

[MasonJar]

21-3/4" radius for the inner track might work, but the more im thinking about it, the more i think i want to have a little bigger radius then that for the inner. Maybe 24" on the inside, and 28" on the outside. This would allow me to run longer trains down or up on the outside track correct since the radius is wider?


If im reading your calculations correct, your saying that i would have a 2.9% grade right? I could live with that.... lol. 18" between the levels would be better anyways, and if i could get away with going that high without too much more work and headache, then thats what i will do. It should also give me a little more "head" room lol

Yes, it works out to a 2.9% grade. If you increase your radius as discussed above, you will lower the grade. I would also suggest that you use the inner (smaller) radius for descending, and the outer, larger radius for ascending.

In my calculations above, there is 14" between the top of the lower deck and bottom of the upper deck. Then I have added 4" for the thickness of the upper deck. If you think you want the overall climb at only 14", then you will really only have 10" between the decks, which may not be enough. You will however, save one turn of the helix.

Andrew

[Trucklover]

Yes, it works out to a 2.9% grade. If you increase your radius as discussed above, you will lower the grade. I would also suggest that you use the inner (smaller) radius for descending, and the outer, larger radius for ascending.

In my calculations above, there is 14" between the top of the lower deck and bottom of the upper deck. Then I have added 4" for the thickness of the upper deck. If you think you want the overall climb at only 14", then you will really only have 10" between the decks, which may not be enough. You will however, save one turn of the helix.

Andrew

Thanks Andrew

Can you help me with the new measurements here? Im horrible with math, and just looking at the formulas you posted is giving me a headache LOL

10" between the levels would not be enough, i know that for sure now LOL, im thinking 14" should be the minimum and that should be enough room. I also want to add some light strips under the top level for the lower level, so if im going to do that then maybe i should have 16" between the levels, making the total rise 20" right?

so new numbers LOL

20" between the 2 levels.
lets do 28" on the outside track and 24" on the inside track, that should make it a little better then 22 and 24"
4" between the levels on the helix


I think thats it right? I really appreciate all the help ive gotten on this, im saving all this info for when the time comes to bang this out!! The more ive been thinking about it, i think i just wanna have a helix custom built for me, it would save me alot of headaches LOL. I can do benchwork, but im not sure i wanna jump into helix construction lol

[upnick]

Hi Josh,

Did you not see the elevator contruction in MR June P60 ....... the restriction of an elevator is how long you want to run a train of course.

[Trucklover]

Hi Josh,

Did you not see the elevator contruction in MR June P60 ....... the restriction of an elevator is how long you want to run a train of course.

Say what???? No i didnt, ill have to check it out, thanks Nick!!!

[MasonJar]

Thanks Andrew

Can you help me with the new measurements here? Im horrible with math, and just looking at the formulas you posted is giving me a headache LOL

10" between the levels would not be enough, i know that for sure now LOL, im thinking 14" should be the minimum and that should be enough room. I also want to add some light strips under the top level for the lower level, so if im going to do that then maybe i should have 16" between the levels, making the total rise 20" right?

so new numbers LOL

20" between the 2 levels.
lets do 28" on the outside track and 24" on the inside track, that should make it a little better then 22 and 24"
4" between the levels on the helix


I think thats it right? I really appreciate all the help ive gotten on this, im saving all this info for when the time comes to bang this out!! The more ive been thinking about it, i think i just wanna have a helix custom built for me, it would save me alot of headaches LOL. I can do benchwork, but im not sure i wanna jump into helix construction lol

New numbers

Circumference = pi x diameter OR pi x 2 x radius

3.14 x 2 x 24 = 150" or 12.5 feet per complete turn for the inner radius AND
3.14 x 2 x 28 = 176" or 14.7 feet per complete turn for the outer radius

So that's ~27.5 feet of track for each turn the radius makes.

Grade% = rise / run x 100%
4"/150" x 100 = 2.6% on the inner
4"/176" x 100 = 2.3% on the outer (see, it's lower...! )

Now going up 20" using a 4" climb with every turn requires 5 turns. However, you need to have a 1/2 turn to come out going in the opposite direction that you went in (so your helix can be in a corner or at one end of the layout).

5.5 x 27.5 feet per turn = 151+ feet of helix track. Note that this will raise you a total of 22 inches (18 inches between the decks).

Is the train elevator looking like a more reasonable solution...?

By the way, building the upper deck with 3/4" ply ripped to 4" wide will give you a deck thickness of 4", as the 2" foam is recessed inside. This also gives you a couple of inches to hide the lighting, wiring, switch machines, and whatever else you need under the deck.

Andrew

[Russ Bellinis]

Josh, by light strips, are you talking about the lighting strips sold at the home centers like they use to mark aisles in air planes? Unless you need to hide them behind a valance, those strips would only add 1/4 inch or so to the distance between the upper and lower levels. A one inch valence would probably be all that is needed to hide the lighting. If one light strip directly behind the valance would provide adequate light, you could use a valance as small as 1/2 inch to hide the lights.

On the elevator idea, train length would not need to be a consideration at all. The entire yard would be on the elevator with a yard lead on each level. You would raise the yard up to work the top level or lower it to work the lower level, and then make up the trains after you had decided which level to switch. Operationally, you could raise the elevator and work the upper level, then while your industries are loading/unloading cars, you go to the lower level and work those industries. The only restriction is that you would probably not be able to work both levels at the same time, but if you are operating the layout by yourself, you can't really focus on more than one train at a time anyway.

[shortliner]

One other comment - the tighter the radius, the more likely the train is to "stringline" and haul the cars off the track sideways, instead of hauling them along the track, which is what you want them to do. This may cause problems with the 60' cars on the steeper/tighter gradient. The only real way to find out is to try it out - but go for the largest radius you can fit in and keep the gradient as flat as possible, at the expense of increasing the number of turns
Found this which may give you an idea about space needed HO scale Helix model train elevation kit 2% *NEW ITEM* Item number: 360171276386

This was what i was thinking about and i think i would like to make the radius a little wider as i mentioned in my post above. I really dont want trains derailing and plunging to the floor LOL

do you have a link to that item you posted?

Josh - sorry been offline - that number was an ebay one - if you put it in although the item has finished it should still show up.

[Trucklover]

New numbers

Andrew, thanks for the new numbers!!

I sent an email to the guy that has the Helix's that Shaun posted, gave him the specifications that i would need the helix custom built to... Im curious how much the cost would be on it, see what he says

[Trucklover]

Josh, by light strips, are you talking about the lighting strips sold at the home centers like they use to mark aisles in air planes? Unless you need to hide them behind a valance, those strips would only add 1/4 inch or so to the distance between the upper and lower levels. A one inch valence would probably be all that is needed to hide the lighting. If one light strip directly behind the valance would provide adequate light, you could use a valance as small as 1/2 inch to hide the lights.

I was thinking light strips like these: http://www.goodmart.com/products/889502.htm There the long ones that are like 4' or somthing and take the long tube bulbs. I like the idea of the small lights you are talking about though, and if they would fit up there without being seen hardly, i like them even better. Got a link to what they look like? Hiding them behind the overhang from the top deck would be ideal and what i would want to do. But i want them to be good lights and provide good lights for pictures. White light is a must....

On the elevator idea, train length would not need to be a consideration at all. The entire yard would be on the elevator with a yard lead on each level. You would raise the yard up to work the top level or lower it to work the lower level, and then make up the trains after you had decided which level to switch. Operationally, you could raise the elevator and work the upper level, then while your industries are loading/unloading cars, you go to the lower level and work those industries. The only restriction is that you would probably not be able to work both levels at the same time, but if you are operating the layout by yourself, you can't really focus on more than one train at a time anyway.

I like the idea of the Elevator, but i dont think it would be practical to have the entire yard on an elevator going between decks. It would certainly be the center of attention on the layout, but this yard is huge! lol Maybe if i had an elevator that had 2 tracks on it that went between the decks, say 2 tracks that were 8' long each... Might be something to consider. I do have a proposed location for the helix however that i think would work well. Im thinking on the right side of the plan where the 2 tracks come out of the yard and connect to the modules going down the right side of the plan. Instead of the tracks continuing down the side of the plan like they are, they would go into the helix.... Still have to work this into the plan, so we'll so how it works out

[Trucklover]

Josh - sorry been offline - that number was an ebay one - if you put it in although the item has finished it should still show up.

No worries, thanks for the link This is the same helix made by the same guy that Shaun posted earlier in the thread, except the ebay one is more expensive lol. Like i said, i sent them an email on the construction of my helix, so hopefully i can get a quote and it will be reasonable

[Russ Bellinis]

Josh, I made a mistake with the product name. It is called rope light. Home Depot and Lowes carry it, or used to carry it, but they charged @ $20.00 for a 2-3 foot piece. The roll at this place for $54.99 would be a better deal. This was the first site I opened, so you may find a better deal with a little more searching.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.affordablequalitylighting.com/docs/indoor/rope/clear/index.html">http://www.affordablequalitylighting.co ... index.html</a><!-- m -->

[e-paw]

sorry I caught this thread a little late. You can ask jglfan for help, he built a pretty impressive helix for his layout.

[Trucklover]

Josh, I made a mistake with the product name. It is called rope light. Home Depot and Lowes carry it, or used to carry it, but they charged @ $20.00 for a 2-3 foot piece. The roll at this place for $54.99 would be a better deal. This was the first site I opened, so you may find a better deal with a little more searching.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.affordablequalitylighting.com/docs/indoor/rope/clear/index.html">http://www.affordablequalitylighting.co ... index.html</a><!-- m -->

Thanks Russ. Would these lights provide good bright lighting for pictures? $54.99 for 150' sounds like a pretty good price to me

[Russ Bellinis]

I doubt that they would be bright enough for photography, but for photography, just get portable flood lights that can be set up and moved around to get the light where you want it. I doubt if the strip lights you are looking at would be bright enough for decent photography.