Interesting, but un-modeled industries

[nkp_174]

On Oahu, the CTC double track 3' gauge mainline of the Oahu Railway & Land Co hauled munitions, soldiers, and various supplies to a variety of military installations. Further, it helped haul sand for Waikiki Beach, pineapples, sugar cane, normal common carrier items, and trash to the landfill!

[MountainMan]

On Oahu, the CTC double track 3' gauge mainline of the Oahu Railway & Land Co hauled munitions, soldiers, and various supplies to a variety of military installations. Further, it helped haul sand for Waikiki Beach, pineapples, sugar cane, normal common carrier items, and trash to the landfill!

"Haul sand to Waikiki Beach?" Good grief... :?

[nkp_174]

"Haul sand to Waikiki Beach?" Good grief... :?

Waikiki has long had trouble with losing sand. It has been replenished many times. If IIRC, it is actually an artificial beach. Now it is worth noting that the OR&L stopped on the other side of downtown Honolulu from Waikiki...so it didn't carry it all the way to the beach. Whether natural or not, and despite the fact that the neighborhood is basically Nike Town & the Cheesecake Factory, it is a very nice beach.

Now, it is necessary to share a picture I took of my wife (a non-swimsuit shot) sitting on a pier along Waikiki...she's in blue (May '08)...

[MountainMan]

Nice beach!

[bdw9535]

Someone had already mentioned glass manufacturers, here's a shot of Durand Glass in Millville,NJ. If you like to model covered hoppers they get a mix of different types bringing in sand, lime, dolomite, soda ash and other products .

[Ralph]

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Here's a pic of a munitions plant that was once active in the Twin Cities. It has several buildings like this with a number of gates for track leading into the plant's acreage.

[Charlie B]

One thing for all modern day modelers to watch...Track side industries with no rail service. The major railroads are very reluctant to put switches in off of the main so if the industry does not receive a lot of cars they will be encouraged to use trucks and intermodal.
In my town alone there were 12 business places served by rail when Conrail was formed. Now there are none. To be fair most of the business closed but some have survived without rail service.
Some were forced to close because they no longer could get goods by rail. IMHO The railroads abandoned their way to prosperity and in many cases it was premature. Many abandoned lines could have been utilized for passenger service.
Charlie

[nkp_174]

One thing for all modern day modelers to watch...Track side industries with no rail service. The major railroads are very reluctant to put switches in off of the main so if the industry does not receive a lot of cars they will be encouraged to use trucks and intermodal.
In my town alone there were 12 business places served by rail when Conrail was formed. Now there are none. To be fair most of the business closed but some have survived without rail service.
Some were forced to close because they no longer could get goods by rail. IMHO The railroads abandoned their way to prosperity and in many cases it was premature. Many abandoned lines could have been utilized for passenger service.
Charlie

Good point. LCL is largely a thing of the past.

I somewhat disagree about abandoned lines. Passenger service doesn't pay the bills (and in most cases, never has)...but it did tie up the main and cause other hassles. The branchlines, locals, and passenger trains which originally made the Pennsy into a cash cow are what eventually killed it...with the help of our always omniscient government (the ICC blocking abandonments and the dropping of services). Small switching runs eat up fuel and crew time...not to mention cause additional headaches (switches left open, mainline fouled temporarily, car supply, maintenance for the switch, possibly additional signals). LCL was long shunned by the railroads...with rates designed as much to drive the business away as to make it worth while.

I believe that the railroads of today know how to make money with the present constraints of union contracts (the reason that non-union shortlines can turn a dime on lines the big boys can't)...and that is their job. It is perfectly understandable that they would want to eliminate anything that makes their job more difficult without contributing towards their goal of paying dividends and driving up their stock price (increasing the retirement savings of many normal americans).

[MountainMan]

So railroads are not only their own worst enemies, but like passenger airlines, determined to drive themselves out of business entirely?

That won't help the investors much, but then again, there are actually no laws whatsoever guaranteeing a return on investment to anyone. The stock market remains the largest form of legalized gambling in the nation. Probably why there are no more buggy whip or Stanley Steamer companies.

[nkp_174]

So railroads are not only their own worst enemies, but like passenger airlines, determined to drive themselves out of business entirely?

That won't help the investors much, but then again, there are actually no laws whatsoever guaranteeing a return on investment to anyone. The stock market remains the largest form of legalized gambling in the nation. Probably why there are no more buggy whip or Stanley Steamer companies.

I like you last line...buggy whip manufacturers are the great example. After the arrival of highways, cheap cars, and trucks, local service became kin to buggy whips...few wanted to use it...and there was no money to be made off of it. Many roads went bankrupt because of it...and the ICC forcing them to commit suicide. Many investors got burned by that...but that is the risk of investment...there is no free lunch...you gamble, you might get burned. Railroads such as the Nickel Plate used to turn nice profits off of the business that the big boys chase now...long haul, "fast" freight. The downside to that is if you become dependent upon competitors for your business (such as the Erie-Lackawana merger robbed the NKP of its key partner as a bridge route)...or the Colorado Midland being unable to compete with the D&RG. Since trucks cannot come close to competing with trains for medium and long haul business on price, the business is relatively secure. I believe that the railroads understand better than most railfans that the economics of transportation have changed and they know how to make money today (and tomorrow).

It is always easier to sit back and long for the way things were...but there are always reasons for why things happened as they did.

Nearly every Colorado RR book covers the 1893 silver panic in Colorado. It is the single most important event in all of Colorado RR history. Most of the authors I've read just simply don't understand it at all. They complain bitterly about the short sightedness of the Federal government, and what a stupid decision it was...of course it is because the local economy was devastated and railroads went into receivership. No one was/is worse about this sort of thing the David Digerness in the Mineral Belts (which are outstanding books). They completely fail to see why the silver subsidy was canceled...too much silver was being mined and the rest of the country was fitting the bill for the excesses of Colorado's mining industry. The government was robbing the rest of the country (which didn't have our income tax) to pay for saloons, prostitutes, and personal fortunes. Sure, people suffered because of it, but the unfairness that was being served to the rest of the nation was ended. The railroad authors fail to realize that it was a major reason in why their beloved narrow gauges remained narrow gauge...and it has long given them something to gripe about.

[doctorwayne]

So railroads are not only their own worst enemies, but like passenger airlines, determined to drive themselves out of business entirely?

That won't help the investors much, but then again, there are actually no laws whatsoever guaranteeing a return on investment to anyone. The stock market remains the largest form of legalized gambling in the nation. Probably why there are no more buggy whip or Stanley Steamer companies.

John Kneiling used to write what I found to be a very interesting column for Trains magazine, addressing these very issues. He forecast the collapses that eventually came and the re-organisations and consolidations, too, but so many "railfans" wrote every month to complain about his whinings that the column was eventually discontinued. I suspect that there may have also been some pressure from the railroads, too. It seems that no one liked to have too much light shed on their questionable activities, and those that should have been looking at what was revealed by that light preferred to not see it.

Wayne

[nkp_174]

Side note: Doctor Wayne, love your new Avatar!

[doctorwayne]

Thanks, Michael. I just wanted to see if I could make one and have it work. I had "a few problems" posting photos here when we first started up.

Wayne

[MountainMan]

I like you last line...buggy whip manufacturers are the great example. After the arrival of highways, cheap cars, and trucks, local service became kin to buggy whips...few wanted to use it...and there was no money to be made off of it. Many roads went bankrupt because of it...and the ICC forcing them to commit suicide. Many investors got burned by that...but that is the risk of investment...there is no free lunch...you gamble, you might get burned. Railroads such as the Nickel Plate used to turn nice profits off of the business that the big boys chase now...long haul, "fast" freight. The downside to that is if you become dependent upon competitors for your business (such as the Erie-Lackawana merger robbed the NKP of its key partner as a bridge route)...or the Colorado Midland being unable to compete with the D&RG. Since trucks cannot come close to competing with trains for medium and long haul business on price, the business is relatively secure. I believe that the railroads understand better than most railfans that the economics of transportation have changed and they know how to make money today (and tomorrow).

It is always easier to sit back and long for the way things were...but there are always reasons for why things happened as they did.

Nearly every Colorado RR book covers the 1893 silver panic in Colorado. It is the single most important event in all of Colorado RR history. Most of the authors I've read just simply don't understand it at all. They complain bitterly about the short sightedness of the Federal government, and what a stupid decision it was...of course it is because the local economy was devastated and railroads went into receivership. No one was/is worse about this sort of thing the David Digerness in the Mineral Belts (which are outstanding books). They completely fail to see why the silver subsidy was canceled...too much silver was being mined and the rest of the country was fitting the bill for the excesses of Colorado's mining industry. The government was robbing the rest of the country (which didn't have our income tax) to pay for saloons, prostitutes, and personal fortunes. Sure, people suffered because of it, but the unfairness that was being served to the rest of the nation was ended. The railroad authors fail to realize that it was a major reason in why their beloved narrow gauges remained narrow gauge...and it has long given them something to gripe about.[/quote]
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Yet government subsidies continue on a massive scale to this day, still robbing the taxpayers. If it was wrong in the 1800's, it's wrong now, perhaps more so. There has never been any evidence to show that government involvement improved anything.

My point was that by attempting to dictate to the market how it must work in order to receive service, the railroads might better serve themselves and their investors by working to service the needs of the customers. FedEx and UPS are driving the US Postal Service to destruction by using that exact formula. Railroads drive potentially large customers right into the hands of their competitors by saying: "We don't serve your region."

No one ever made money by saying "no".

[nkp_174]

Yet government subsidies continue on a massive scale to this day, still robbing the taxpayers. If it was wrong in the 1800's, it's wrong now, perhaps more so. There has never been any evidence to show that government involvement improved anything.

My point was that by attempting to dictate to the market how it must work in order to receive service, the railroads might better serve themselves and their investors by working to service the needs of the customers. FedEx and UPS are driving the US Postal Service to destruction by using that exact formula. Railroads drive potentially large customers right into the hands of their competitors by saying: "We don't serve your region."

No one ever made money by saying "no".

I agree with most of what you are saying, but I do think that money is sometimes lost by saying yes. The railroads are not always great at service (I recall Triple Crown being on time less than 30% of the time a few years back). LCL was always more of a nuisance to the railroads than anything else. It resulted in half filled boxcars getting hauled around...causing wear and tear...and eating up fuel. Boxcars aren't free...and neither are locomotives...even if the freight revenue covers the maintenance and crew costs...there is the liability and the capital invested in the additional equipment. If I recall, a wooden boxcar would typically last for 15 years...after that, the repair costs would exceed 1/15th of the replacement cost. Railroads want their cars filled to capacity and moving at all times. If it is less than full or sitting idle...it is losing money. There were a number of interesting studies performed in the 19th century on this sort of thing. I bet that if you check the industry publications (and not the railfan publications), there are studies about how many cars a mainline connection needs to produce per year to be profitable...and hence worth while to a railroad of a specific size. I'd bet that it is #of cars per mainline switch...and not # of cars per industry. I'd also bet that since the railroads are not filled by people in capable of mistakes or exceptions...that sometimes they serve industries that cost them money and other times they fail to serve ones that could make money. I'd love to know how many customers have been alienated by poor service...which may have been the result of the CEO, an engineer, a conductor, a lowly brakeman, or any of the other people capable of making a mistake.

I agree that FedEx & UPS are hurting the postal service...but I think the internet is really what is killing it...FedEx & UPS are just taking away some of the more profitable business (and the USPS is stuck doing lots of the public service stuff). I wonder how the Canadian Post is doing...which is a great segway back to the topic...

Postal facilities. The main Cincinnati post office was build as part of the Union Terminal project. It had many platforms for the mail. It also sat next to the large roundhouse. It would have, as would the roundhouse with engines and the station with passenger cars, head end cars from the B&O, NYC, PRR, C&O, N&W, Southern, and L&N...not to mention any that were part of alphabet schemes (Lackawana baggage and sleepers arrived in Chicago on NKP trains).