Switchers stalling? Please no.
#1
Hello folks!

several weeks ago i bought an Athearn Genesis MP15AC.
[Image: dsc02649euen.jpg]
My "off topic" loco, i purchased her for model technical comparison.
Performance is good, but i used to creep with switchers over the rails. This MP15AC was stalling to much for my taste. Alls frogs are live frogs, even the points got soldered conections by wires.

I made this modification:
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One of the trucks was demounted. Both trucks are qual and you see the half moon shaped bolsters where the main frame sits up. The truck can rock forth and aft, but not sidewards. For one truck these half moons are o.k. to stabilize the loco, but not on both trucks. On uneven track it is possible that tree wheels on one side have "airtime" and the forth is just above the sh...(no political correct expression) of an fly.
Stall. :evil: Wallbang

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Short and dirty: Cut.
The second truck stay unmodified as it is.

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Take an very short lenght of an tube as shimming, equal lenght as the former half moon's height. A package of washers will do the same use.
The truck is now able to rock in every degree. The second truck is prevented by the malf moons fron rocking sidewards.
Thus you have here an loco with an equalized running gear.

No contact problems.
No stalling.

I hope this may solve some problems.

Greetings Lutz
Cheers Lutz
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#2
Very interesting! Although I have put a bunch of thought into loco power pick-up, I've never considered this. Thanks for sharing with us.
Three Foot Rule In Effect At All Times
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#3
I'm having the same problem with an Athearn GP15-1 DCC/Sound equipped that I got. Constantly stalling/restarting. Does seem to be some sort of power pick up issue. Maybe you've found the answer to my problem.
Ed
"Friends don't let friends build Timesavers"
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#4
At a recent workshop I attended on tuning cars and locomotives to eliminate derailing over less than perfect track, the man giving the clinic said that the "old three point" mounting system that has been "gospel" forever in model railroading doesn't work, never has, and never will because our models are just too light for the physics to work. It works on the prototype because of the weight. If you have a piece of rolling stock with the "three point mounting" and you "tip" it even slightly, the end with the tight truck will pull the wheels off the track. What he does to cure the problem is to set up the trucks just loose enough that when the rolling stock is sitting on a track, you can push the top of the car 1 scale foot without the wheels lifting off the track. In the event of a flat car or gondola, you probably need to secure a load to the car, perhaps with a rubber band to be able to deflect it at the normal "house car" height. If the car roof will deflect 1 scale foot without lifting the wheels, the car will handle rough spots in track work. If you can move it more than 1 scale foot, it will track fine, but may rock excessively. IN ho it works out to @ 1/8 of an inch is adequate to allow the car to handle rough track.
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#5
Russ Bellinis Wrote:At a recent workshop I attended on tuning cars and locomotives to eliminate derailing over less than perfect track, the man giving the clinic said that the "old three point" mounting system that has been "gospel" forever in model railroading doesn't work, never has, and never will because our models are just too light for the physics to work.
Interesting info there Russ! I've always used the "three point" truck mounting method on all my cars because it was recommended as far back as I can remember. Took a few of the cars this evening and adjusted truck screws per your posting and looks like the cars actually move smoother through turnouts and along the track. So we'll just forget the three point mounting. Prototype cars can rock quite a bit from side to side, so a little rock and roll action is just fine, although I didn't observe any. I know from real life experience, that cars in a train moving on rough joined track can rock enough that you can often read the car numbers on the ends!

I had considered trying Lutz' fix on my Athearn GP15 as it has the same problem as his MP15AC, but the truck design is different and can't be modified as shown. Can see that when the engine is on the track, just very slightly pushing the car body from side to side causes the wheels to lift off the rail enough to loose power contact. Look's like my only hope is to find a way to add wheel wipers on the trucks.
Ed
"Friends don't let friends build Timesavers"
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#6
Lutz,
this is a very good adaption to diesels of my all time favoured, preached and realized “three point mounting” at all my freight cars. Best of all the models do not swing side by side on uneven track, at rail points or bad installed switches. And this swinging will be one of best realized characteristics at industrial produced model cars. And here I must say that this is not comparable with swinging cars in reality, industrial built model cars do more vibrate than swing.

Russ,
I can not understand this solution of a workshopper giving the wheels an extreme high maneuverability in order to avoid the bad running and derailments on bad laid track. And I can not understand the statements of grounds that the car weight will not be high enough for a good working of three point mounted trucks. My models are close to NMRA weights and in many cases until 20 percent lower – and they run all without derailments and without vibrations. I’m absolutely sure that this “three point mounting” will give the best running quality of models and the realisation to engines (also steam engines!) will help to give additional a solid electrical power supply.

Lutz, a very good work! I remember that you did same at steam engines in a few cases? Let see us your solutions here also.
Cheers, Bernd

Please visit also my website http://www.us-modelsof1900.de.
You can read some more about my model projects and interests in my chronicle of facebook.
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#7
Extreme examples to show what is possible.

Two times the same loco. 2-10-0s of German prototype choosen as examples.
One is unmodified, this is the loco with high flanges and spoked pilot wheels.
The other one is modified in acordance to the 3-point rules, the "old ones" in conclusion with sprung loaded axles.

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The extreme roadbed without locos.

The unmodified loco:
[Image: dsc02760tqf5.jpg]
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Look to the third, fourth and fifth drivers. Even the european practices of high flanges can't avoid derailing. The flanges are above the railhead and so they are no longer capable to guide the loco.

The modified one:
[Image: dsc02759erie.jpg]
[Image: dsc027583rzw.jpg]
[Image: dsc02755dol2.jpg]
The flanges were turned down to an height of app. 0.25mm.
All wheels are still on the railheads and will stay there whether there are good laid rails or very bad laid rails.

Greetings Lutz


P.S.
ACHTUNG! Warning! German humor!
[Image: dsc027632mnt.jpg]
Question: Is this a loco or a dog?

Lutz
Cheers Lutz
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#8
modelsof1900 Wrote:Russ,
I can not understand this solution of a workshopper giving the wheels an extreme high maneuverability in order to avoid the bad running and derailments on bad laid track. And I can not understand the statements of grounds that the car weight will not be high enough for a good working of three point mounted trucks. My models are close to NMRA weights and in many cases until 20 percent lower – and they run all without derailments and without vibrations. I’m absolutely sure that this “three point mounting” will give the best running quality of models and the realisation to engines (also steam engines!) will help to give additional a solid electrical power supply.

Lutz, a very good work! I remember that you did same at steam engines in a few cases? Let see us your solutions here also.

The guy giving the clinic was from an old local model railroad club. Their track work is aparently not the best, but the club is not going to change it. They have found that if the three point system is employed on any car or locomotives that they will consistently derail all over the railroad, but by loosening the trucks slightly, they will stay on the tracks without problems. The trucks are not real loose, we are talking about a boxcar roof being able to rock 1/8 inch either way and still have the trucks stay on the tracks. That sort of mounting allows the truck to absorb uneveness in the track and stay on the rails.
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#9
Lutz,

how do run your German 2-10-0 about a very uneven track? I think that 0.3 mm flages (.012") can not give a very high guiding on problematic track positions. The twisted sample track is a good demonstration that the axle movement must be changed - however what did you install and how did you change the frame?
Do you have a few more pictures of inside of frame? Thanks!
Cheers, Bernd

Please visit also my website http://www.us-modelsof1900.de.
You can read some more about my model projects and interests in my chronicle of facebook.
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#10
50' box cars, a not uncommon type of car from P2K found on many US layouts.
The extreme roadbed is the same as before. This is only for demonstration to show what can happen.


[Image: dsc02769dmcn.jpg]
[Image: dsc027683mto.jpg]
This car i modified by loosening or tightening the truck mounting screws so that the car can rock sidewards as Russ described before.
The wheels of the truck right in the photo were above the railhead.


[Image: dsc02766emvj.jpg]
This is the same type of car, also from P2K, which was modified to the 3-point suspension.
The left truck has no lateral movement and can only cantilevering for and aft.
The right truck can rock not only for and aft, but sidewards in both directions too.

How to do it?
[Image: dsc02083dx09.jpg]
Look to the bolster on the right. There simple two small pieces of styrene rods were glued besides the pivot. The car will rest by this rod dirctly on the truck. Rocking sidewards is eliminated in this manner. The other truck bolster is unchanged as factory delivered. Only the mounting screw is loosened.

This is the practicical application.
For those who want to learn more about the theoretical basics:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.clag.org.uk/41-0rev.html">http://www.clag.org.uk/41-0rev.html</a><!-- m -->
But warning this is very pretentious. The basics for what i have done here is described in chapter 7.

Greetings Lutz
Cheers Lutz
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#11
Schraddel Wrote:...several weeks ago i bought an Athearn Genesis MP15AC. ...

I did have the same current pickup problems as described by Lutz. The suggested solution did help a lot and the engines did run much better. However, the pickup was substandard again when I did run two SP MP15AC today. The engines did not come to a complete halt but the lights flicker and the run was some times not as smooth as it should be. The wheels looked clean and fresh as usual.
I did put the engines on a DCC powered divided brass brush and let the wheel clean them self running on that brush. To my surprise that solved the problem.
My guess is that Athearn did use a different material for at least some runs of the Genesis MP15AC wheels than they did on other engines. I assume that material tends to build a very thin layer of invisible oxide.

Remark, an older CSX YN1 (rn 1138) engine from 2008 shows none of the problems and runs like hell without any fixes or cleaning.
Reinhard
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#12
Schraddel:
I kahn ihren Bilder nicht sehen. Wenn ich klicke an der Spot, es sagt "Dieses Bild wurde gelöscht."

(Es gibt fasst 50 jahre das ich habe Deutsch nicht studiert.)
David
Moderato ma non troppo
Perth & Exeter Railway Company
Esquesing & Chinguacousy Radial Railway
In model railroading, there are between six and two hundred ways of performing a given task.
Most modellers can get two of them to work.
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#13
Me neither..... Eek
Gus (LC&P).
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#14
Rough translation (been a long time since I had German in school as well): This picture was removed from the system by the user themselves or by an administrator

--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad of the 1950's in HO

Visit my web site to see layout progress and other information:
http://www.readingeastpenn.com
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#15
faraway Wrote:
Schraddel Wrote:...several weeks ago i bought an Athearn Genesis MP15AC. ...

I did have the same current pickup problems as described by Lutz. The suggested solution did help a lot and the engines did run much better. However, the pickup was substandard again when I did run two SP MP15AC today. The engines did not come to a complete halt but the lights flicker and the run was some times not as smooth as it should be. The wheels looked clean and fresh as usual.
I did put the engines on a DCC powered divided brass brush and let the wheel clean them self running on that brush. To my surprise that solved the problem.
My guess is that Athearn did use a different material for at least some runs of the Genesis MP15AC wheels than they did on other engines. I assume that material tends to build a very thin layer of invisible oxide.

Remark, an older CSX YN1 (rn 1138) engine from 2008 shows none of the problems and runs like hell without any fixes or cleaning.

Let me pop up this old thread again.
I got the two MP15AC again out of the cabinet and they had the pickup problems again. Cleaning the wheels did improve the behavior but they did still tend to stall on some switches. All the spots they stall at are passed by all other engines! The lamps tend to flicker if you lift one truck. But all those problems are highly intermittent.
I came back to my suspicion and changed the wheels sets this time. Looks like that cured the problem. They are solid runners now. I assume Athearn had a batch of wheels that get a thin invisible layer of oxide after some time.
Reinhard
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