Peco switch's and semi-scale wheels.

[train_guy]

In the months ahead,I plan on begining my accumulation of Peco DCC ready Insulfrog switch's and 36" flextrack.How-ever i plan on running semi-scale wheels(Intermountain,Athearn genesis 0.88)on all my rolling stock.Question is,will the wheel flanges fall into the frog as it passes through the points?Oh,it will be code 83.Any one have any expierence with the new Peco switch's and semi-scale wheels?

[pgandw]

I don't have any experience with Peco Code 83 track. I do understand, that unlike their other lines, the Code 83 track is deliberately made to NMRA standards.

In attempting to set semi-scale standards or RPs, the NMRA committees found that to avoid frog drop, the wheel width should be at least twice the flangeway width. NMRA specs for HO are flangeways 0.040" to 0.050". Semi-scale wheels are code 88 or 0.088" wide; regular HO wheels are code 110. FWIW, Proto87 uses a wheel width of 0.064". Theoretically, semi-scale wheels should work just fine if the flangeways are set to the narrow end of the range. And they do.

The hitch is that by studying the gauge diagrams, one realizes that to achieve 0.040" flangeways, the track gauge must be at the minimum value of 0.649". The track gauge at the frog is 2 times the flangeway width plus the check gauge (the distance between the outer corner of the guard rails). The check gauge has to be accurate, and consistent with the back-to-back wheel gauge for the guard rails to do their job. No commercial turnout manufacturer is going to use minimum flangeways and minimum track gauge for several reasons:

• - minimum track gauge pushes up minimum radius requirements. Gauge widening is used on our tight model curves to allow the rigid wheel base to fit around a tighter curve than would otherwise be possible. The result is locomotives and rolling stock that will barely go through a #4 or #5 will need a #5 or #6 turnout.
  - wider flangeways will allow a wheel set that is gauged slightly wide to transit the frog without riding up on or picking the frog point. As a result, a wider variety of unchecked rolling stock will go through the turnout without derailing
  - manufacturing tolerances are much tighter. Gauge and flangeway can only vary by a couple of thousandths, instead of 10 thousandths. This pushes up manufacturing costs.

I have not measured Peco code 83 flangeways. I suggest you do. If they are close to 0.050" as I suspect (still meets NMRA standards), then you will likely experience wheel drop with sprung trucks and code 88 wheels. The larger the frog #, the more likely the drop will occur. Some rigid frame trucks will escape wheel drop because the truck frame will hold the wheel in the air when it would otherwise drop. Great for not having wheel drop at frogs, not so great for tracking over any other vertical irregularities. But then I prefer sprung trucks.

The only way I know of to completely avoid wheel drop with code 88 wheels is to hand lay your own turnouts with the smaller flangeway and track gauge. I will eventually hand lay all my turnouts to semi-scale specs (which work just fine with code 110 wheels, since the flange width is the same). In the meantime, I used a few #4 Atlas and Shinohara turnouts to get my layout started - and yes, my code 88 wheels in the sprung trucks do rattle around and sometimes drop at the frog.

my thoughts, your choices
Fred W

[Schraddel]

Hello Don!

Code .88 wheels definitely drop in into frogs of Peco Streamline Code 83 Track.
In simple words: this wheels are not wide enough to bridge the gap of the frogs.
And this causes dropping in.

To avoid dropping in you have the possibilities:
a) use allways .110 thread wheels and let track and turnouts as is.
b) use .88 thread wheels and modify all of your frogs and flangeways according to H0n3 measurements.

Lutz

[Russ Bellinis]

With insulfrog switches, you should be able to shim the frogs with some thin styrene to tighten things up as needed. You don't even need to cut the shims for exact depth. You can have the shims sticking up a bit, and then carefully file them down flush with the top of the frog once you glue of choice has set up.

[train_guy]

Thanks for the info guys...I almost forgot about this thread.I still may go with the Custom traxx pre-made handlaid track,time will tell.

[doctorwayne]

I have no personal experience with the Peco switches, but a friend who's currently building a layout (and uses semi-scale wheels) discovered that Walthers/Shinohara code 83 turnouts all have a problem with wheel drop (he's using mostly #8 and #10 turnouts). He tried Peco (Electro-frog) in the same sizes and found them to not have this problem. The upside, for me, was a good deal on some very lightly-used Shinohara turnouts.

Wayne

[Schraddel]

One of my expieriences with Peco Code 83 Streamline track.


One of my very first purchases in US railroading was this Peco #7 curved switch. It was raelly an so called Insulfrog switch, but the i did'nt knew that there were Electrofrog ones too.
This switch was laid on my layout and test runs were made. With some locos there were short circuits hock:
Why?
The reason was that i have some locos with flangeless blind drivers, as the Spectrum 2-10-2 i have shortly posted. The wheel rims are prototipically wider than flanged ones. These wider rims bridge the the insulated rails and causing a short circuit.

What to do?

I rebuilt the Insulfrog to an Electrofrog in situ. A new frog tip was made out of some brass profiles and soldered together to an new frog. Because tis new frog is not insulated there has to be made several other cuts to get the switch working properly in electrical manner. Rewiring was also done.
No short circuits any more.

My advise, buy Electrofrog and made the efforts to wire them properly. And enjoy later an uninterrupted travel over this switches even at crawl speeds.

Lutz

[Steamtrains]

I agree....Electrofrogs properly wired are the way to go....Although not "bullet-proof" since you will then shift the shorting problem to the point rails, which can be bridged by an overly wide wheel tread, or 3-wheel tender trucks in a sharp ("small") diverging route. That's why I use only mediums and large sizes.

So...choose your poison....

[BR60103]

The shorting problem with the Insulfrog can be avoided by putting gaps beyond the frog so that current doesn't feed back into the open rail. If you don't want to feed through the points, a DPDT switch can do the frog switching. (details on request)

[Steamtrains]

...Also, most switch machines nowadays come with a built-in DPDT switch so you can power the frog.....

[dr1953]

I am also looking at using the Peco streamline Code 83 turnouts. To make them semi-scale wheel friendly file down the top of the frog til the wheels roll through without dropping in the flangeway. It does not take much filing as the molded plastic floor of the frog is quite high, higher than Shinohara. With this modification all makes of trucks wheels that are RP25 will glide through the turnout with the wheel flange riding on the bottom of the frog (floor). I am a believer after converting some over. I will never use Shinohara again as it is a bit more work raising the Shinohara frog flangeway floor with evergreen styrene strips, about 15 thou thickness if I remember correctly so the wheels glide through. The Peco is well worth the extra $$$ in my opinion. try one and experiment for yourself.
Dan Rowsell
Victoria BC Canada

[doctorwayne]

Hey, Dan, to Big Blue.

Wayne

[Schraddel]

This is another possibilty you can do:

[Steamtrains]

I am kind of at a loss as to what the problem is that is being addressed here....

i have 40+ Peco medium turnouts (Code 100) and I have yet to have ANY of the issues noted...No wheel dropping anywhere, nor flanges "bumping" or rising over anything...and I happen to have a few "cookie cutters" on the rolling stock that were my ol' man's...I have not made any modifications or "fine tuning" to these turnouts. They're as stock as they come, and have yet to take a gauge to check the wheels on the trucks...

Can someone "enlighten" me..??

[doctorwayne]

Yeah, Gus, this is about using semi-scale wheels with Peco turnouts. In this link from NWSL, the semi-scale wheel is the second one from the front in the first photo. The narrower wheels treads may cause problems on some turnouts.

Wayne