Industries -A Open Discussion.

[dave1905]

I'm very aware of how loads in/empties out works, but how would you operate with the inbound/outbound method? To me, it sounds like you're talking about just rotating the roster to have fresh cars on the layout, then not really giving them anywhere to go.

The ultimate loads in, loads out industry has to be a coking plant. Loads of black granular material in open top hoppers in, loads of black granular material in open top hoppers out. If you build the track plan of the plan with a balloon loop, where the plant itself is down the middle of the loop, put the inbound coal unloader on the fron sidet and the outbound coke loader on the back side (or vice versa) with a yard in front. Coal comes in, its switched into cuts and shoved through the "unloader". Then a switcher on the unmodeled other end of the plant shoves the now "empty" hoppers back out under the loader. The switcher pulls the loads and switches them up for their destinations.

[dave1905]

Yes, it was a great discussion...what happened to it? :?

Its pretty normal, most "operations" oriented threads only have a couple week lifespan. Unless the forum is set up for hard core operators (like the Yahoo Op-Sig group) a broad interest forum gets really challenged to maintain interest. Not a criticism, just an observation. I really like operations type discussions, but find them few and far between on most fourms, even those with dedicated sections on operations.

[dave1905]

Since I posted these on a couple other forums, I will add some stuff on some industries I took pictures of a couple weeks ago. In Lincoln, NE on Cornhusker highway and 70th St is Nebraska Boiler Co. It is a fairly unassuming large metal building that genertes really cool loads.

Here is an overview of the plant from the cornhusker highway overpass over the BNSF mains (this is at the east end of Havelock, NE which was a big CB&Q car shop, but I digress). The construction of the building is very simple.


Here is the side of the building from the ground level, this is the same east side as the picture above only looking at SW, note the structure on the back where the spur goes into the building. The big green things are boilers.


Here is the back of the building showing the spur going into the building.


This is the fun part, the outbound loads.

[MountainMan]

Yes, it was a great discussion...what happened to it? :?

Well, hopefully we can take it up again. Here's an official necro-post from yours truly. I've always enjoyed Larry's operations discussions, so I can't help but get in on this one. Especially since we were talking about something similar in chat the other night.

There are pros and cons of both methods of freight distribution, but can we have both loads in/empties out AND inbound/outbound exist on the same layout?

I'm very aware of how loads in/empties out works, but how would you operate with the inbound/outbound method? To me, it sounds like you're talking about just rotating the roster to have fresh cars on the layout, then not really giving them anywhere to go.

I'm not sure what you mean? :?

[doctorwayne]

True "loads-in/empties-out" operation, in a modelling sense, usually refers to "paired" industries, such as a coal mine and a power plant. These would utilise the same sidings, but be separated by a backdrop or view block. A string of loaded hoppers would be pulled from the mine area, travel around the layout, as required, then be shoved into the power plant's siding (which is the same track from which it left the mine). In other words, the mine on the opposite end of the siding now has "another" loaded train, ready to go. The locomotive that was used to deliver the coal to the power plant can now pull a string of empties from the plant's other siding and return them to the mine's loading track, which is merely the opposite end of the siding from where they're leaving the power plant. This requires two sidings, connected through the backdrop to each participating industry. One siding at the mine is the "loads-out", while its opposite end at the power plant is the "loads-in" track. Similarly, the "empties-out" siding at the power plant is, at its opposite end, the "empties-in" track for the mine. For this scenario, you also need two trains of hoppers, one loaded and one empty. You could accomplish the same traffic movement with only one connected siding and one set of hoppers, but it would involve actually loading/unloading the hoppers between operating sessions, which means that you'd generate only one train movement (empties or loads) per session.

When the second level of my layout is built, it will incorporate a power plant (unmodelled, but represented by a staging track). Loaded coal trains will appear from an interchange (another staging track), travel around the layout, then end-up at the plant's track. The hoppers will be emptied (live loads) between operating sessions, and return to their point of origin at a later date. Since I'm usually a solo operator, this scenario will probably occupy an entire operating session, so I don't require the "empties-out" phase immediately, nor the additional siding. Coal train movements (and returning empties) are planned to be three times per week (using "layout time" ), but, depending on which trains I feel like running, the interchange track and the power plant's siding can be used for whatever other trains and industries I choose, as long as the hoppers have been physically removed from the layout. I don't have room to keep cycling the loads/empties back and forth. The next coal train of the week ("layout time" again ) might not occur for many weeks (actual time).

In my opinion, staging is one of the most important keys to operation, whether it be a full staging yard, a cassette, or even a single siding. Staging can represent industries that you don't have room to actually model, and it can also represent the railroads with which your railroad connects (which also connect to even more industries).
Then, all of those cars that you just "gotta have" don't necessarily need to be appropriate for the industries which you actually model. They could be coming from "elsewhere", via a staging or interchange track, and going to a modelled industry on your layout, or coming from a modelled industry and going "elsewhere", or, they might be coming from "elsewhere" and going to a different "elsewhere", in other words, overhead traffic.

Most of us have limited space in which to build a layout, so it's unrealistic to expect to be able to effectively model more than a handful of industries. A single staging track takes up very little space (width-wise, at least) but can represent as many industries as you'd care to have, and can also represent your interchange point with "the rest of the world". My layout will have an interchange track (single dead-end siding) at both the north and south ends of the line, interchanging directly with two different railroads, plus a staging yard at both the northern and southern ends of the line. These will represent not only a connection with a third railroad (the same one, both north and south), but also a lot of unmodelled industries, many receiving multiple cars per session. And, because the industries are not modelled, I can use the same tracks to represent as many industries as I wish - not all at the same time, obviously, but from session to session. Similarly, I have two industrial staging sidings at the south end of the line. These represent an industrial switching district, again with none of the industries actually modelled. The industries there will ship and receive commodities via the modelled portion of the layout, generating traffic and allowing me to use many cars that wouldn't otherwise be seen.

As you can see, the industries that you don't model can be, even if not as interesting visually, as important operationally as those which you do.

Wayne

[Bob C]

Wayne, thanks for the helpful (as always) and elegant explanation of "loads in/empties out" movements. I do think one could utilize a single track connection more efficiently by pulling the outbounds first, then placing the inbounds, as is done with other industries without the "connection", which isn't really there anyhow. This would allow "turn" moves for unit trains, or set off/pick up for peddler/local freight/road switcher jobs. Of course, it means more work for you LPBs - is the 12 hour law in effect on your properties ? Bob C.

[MountainMan]

OK - that's what I thought, but for a moment there I wondered if we were getting into new territory. Thanks for the excellent explanation.

Of course, we an also operate entire trains that have nothing at all to do with anything on our layouts, by simple designating them as "passing through" by means of temporary trackage agreements.

[pgandw]

I've been working on a plan that is a slight twist on the "loads in/empties out". The narrow gauge line started life as a logging line. Timber is hauled from the landing area (up on the hill) to the sawmill. Lumber is transported from the mill to the dog hole port for loading into the schooners. So the traffic pattern is:

• loaded log cars from landing to mill
  empty log cars from mill to landing
  loaded lumber from mill to dock
  empty lumber cars from dock to mill

At the mill, I was struggling how to simulate converting loaded log cars to empties (dumping the logs), and simulating loading the empty lumber cars. I finally thought of having the 2 spurs disappear behind the mill into a 4 track traverser. At the beginning of a session, empty log cars are staged on one of the non-aligned traverser tracks, and loaded lumber cars are staged onto the other non-aligned track. Loaded log cars are staged at the landing, and empty lumber cars are staged at the dock.
During the session, the train arrives with loaded log cars. These are pushed past the log unloader, and onto the empty traverser track. the traverser is moved, and the loco pulls the staged empty log cars to take back to the landing.
A similar sequence works with the empty lumber cars from the dock. They arrive and are pushed behind the mill and onto the empty traverser track for "unloading". The traverser is moved and the loaded lumber cars are pulled for transport to the dock. The daily cycle is completed. Only hassle is restaging everything for the next daily cycle.

As I did more thinking, I realized the traverser could be either horizontal or vertical. The vertical traverser would be 2 shelves of 2 tracks each. In my particular case, the vertical traverser would be easier to fit into the space available.

just some ideas, I welcome comments
Fred W

[BR60103]

I've wondered if the paired industries could be complemented by paired trains. You have 2 identical trainsets with the same numbers on them but one loaded, one empty. But the trainsets have different numbers on each side of the cars and you put a twist in the layout so that when you put the cars into the power plant, they come out the other side with the other set of numbers visible. It would mean having to have the train viewable from one side only. It would also probably not be noticed by anyone visiting!
It might work for a passenger train.

[MountainMan]

I envision several traffic plans for my layout:

1. Freight goods and supplies for the town will be loads in and empties out., passengers in and some passengers out as well.

2. The factory is loads in-empties out and different loads-out. Raw materials and such will come in, and finished units will go out, but they will be specialized freight that has to be shipped on different rolling stock.

3. There will also be the occasional through train heading further into the mountains to serve other small communities, again loads in and empties out.

I envision a flow of loads, empties and finished loads flowing in and out of the town and the factory, with an occasional load going to the mine perhaps. Since the ore from the mine comes by aerial tramway, that portion of rail traffic is unnecessary.

[doctorwayne]

......Since the ore from the mine comes by aerial tramway, that portion of rail traffic is unnecessary.

Is the end destination of the tramway going to be modelled? If so, would it give you an opportunity to shipped the processed ore from there, by train, on to the next step in the operation?

Wayne

[MountainMan]

......Since the ore from the mine comes by aerial tramway, that portion of rail traffic is unnecessary.

Is the end destination of the tramway going to be modelled? If so, would it give you an opportunity to shipped the processed ore from there, by train, on to the next step in the operation?

Wayne

Yes...and no. (Personally, I hate that response, but it's hard to find a place to use it!)

Yes, because the ore, actually in a quasi-refined state, goes into a final processing plant. This is my visual shortcut/expansion to clearly give the impression of a another large industry just out of sight, and to bring another large element into the existing layout. It also gives me an excuse to model an aerial tramway.

No, because the ore itself becomes an element i n the final product, which is what gets shipped out. It's a little bit like a paper plant might be, I guess - logs coming down into a factory which finally ships out paper products. The inter-factory moving will be done by means of small specialized cars moving on a system of narrow trackage with small turntables for switching around, just like those was used in the stone quarry in Marble, Colorado, and by an overhead crane system for the heavy lifting.



The track for the handcarts is visible on the floor to the lower left.

[doctorwayne]

Sounds interesting. Does that mean that it's a plant to process marble, or are you simply using a similar transportation system? I seem to recall seeing a system such as that somewhere else, too, including the turntables, but I can't recall the industry: perhaps this was a fairly common method of moving heavy materials within such plants.

If your particular operation is as interesting as that in the photograph, you could enjoy a lot of modelling challenges just trying to build all of the interior details.

Wayne

[MountainMan]

Sounds interesting. Does that mean that it's a plant to process marble, or are you simply using a similar transportation system? I seem to recall seeing a system such as that somewhere else, too, including the turntables, but I can't recall the industry: perhaps this was a fairly common method of moving heavy materials within such plants.

If your particular operation is as interesting as that in the photograph, you could enjoy a lot of modelling challenges just trying to build all of the interior details.

Wayne

The example come from the Yule Marble Company in Marble, Colorado because that was originally going to be my layout. I think the small cars pushed along narrow factory racks were probably coming for moving heavy goods from machine to machine within the factory.

One of the major factors that drove me to give up modeling the marble finishing mill was that I have to work in N-scale, making it extremely difficult to do justice to the factory interior.

[doctorwayne]

....you could enjoy a lot of modelling challenges just trying to build all of the interior details.

One of the major factors that drove me to give up modeling the marble finishing mill was that I have to work in N-scale, making it extremely difficult to do justice to the factory interior.

Oops! :oops: I had forgotten that you're modelling in N scale. Trying to do that factory interior in N scale would drive me to take up G scale and drinking, too!

Wayne