Industries -A Open Discussion.

[MountainMan]

Oops! :oops: I had forgotten that you're modelling in N scale. Trying to do that factory interior in N scale would drive me to take up G scale and drinking, too!

Wayne

Me too, and I'm not allowed to drink, and I can't afford G-scale!

[MountainMan]

I am still determined to model this, N-scale or not!



Better images of the interior track system, although turntables not shown:

[doctorwayne]

Nice photos, MountainMan, and that's some tricycle!

Just this morning I was reading a book review on the latest volume of the Colorado Rail Annual, from the Colorado Railroad Museum. The book deals mainly with the charcoal and coking industry, along with smelting and, of course, the railroads which were an integral part of those industries. From what I've read, you could probably include some beehive coke or charcoal ovens somewhere along your line, as small operations of them were once quite common.

You're fortunate, too, to have so much historical information available on both the location and era which you've chosen to model.

Wayne

[Sumpter250]

I am still determined to model this, N-scale or not!

.......and I'll be waiting.......to count the spokes in the wheels of that tractor!!!


My best guess is that the interior track ( for the stone carts ) is about two foot gauge. The interior of that stone cutting facility has about the amount of detail as a whole layout!!! I really do think that would be an extremely interesting build to follow. I hope you decide to go ahead with that, and post regular progress shots.
That would be one of those buildings that would have to have a removable roof, so the incredible interior could be viewed......may the "modeling gods", and fortune, favor you!
Marble.........note to self, On30? (no, not the facility, the industry)....some custom rolling stock.

[MountainMan]

I am still determined to model this, N-scale or not!

.......and I'll be waiting.......to count the spokes in the wheels of that tractor!!!


My best guess is that the interior track ( for the stone carts ) is about two foot gauge. The interior of that stone cutting facility has about the amount of detail as a whole layout!!! I really do think that would be an extremely interesting build to follow. I hope you decide to go ahead with that, and post regular progress shots.
That would be one of those buildings that would have to have a removable roof, so the incredible interior could be viewed......may the "modeling gods", and fortune, favor you!
Marble.........note to self, On30? (no, not the facility, the industry)....some custom rolling stock.

Te engine was a bashed together electric rig that brought the marble down the mountain to the finishing mill. Crashes were common, and the owner was in fact killed while on an engine that ran away.

[Sumpter250]

"The engine was a bashed together electric rig that brought the marble down the mountain to the finishing mill. Crashes were common, and the owner was in fact killed while on an engine that ran away."

That "bashed together electric rig" would be fairly easy to do in On30.

[MountainMan]

It appears I was wrong. Enlarging the image posted above reveals the turntable set into the floor just behind the leading handcart.

[eightyeightfan1]

I Googled the area, and checked out the satelite pictures. Looks like there isn't much left. Some foundations, some trails which I'm guessing is where the tracks were laid down.
I think someone visited the site and posted pictures back when we were on the other place.
Was that you MM? I can't remember it was so long ago that I saw the pics. But I found it interesting.

[MountainMan]

I don't remember if I did or not. There are not a lot of decent images to post - most of the good ones come from reference books. Not much of Marble is left, nor of the Yule Company, although tours do visit the quarry sites.

[Brakie]

I am still determined to model this, N-scale or not!

.......and I'll be waiting.......to count the spokes in the wheels of that tractor!!!


My best guess is that the interior track ( for the stone carts ) is about two foot gauge. The interior of that stone cutting facility has about the amount of detail as a whole layout!!! I really do think that would be an extremely interesting build to follow. I hope you decide to go ahead with that, and post regular progress shots.
That would be one of those buildings that would have to have a removable roof, so the incredible interior could be viewed......may the "modeling gods", and fortune, favor you!
Marble.........note to self, On30? (no, not the facility, the industry)....some custom rolling stock.

Ah,but,there is a way that separates N Scalers from N Scale modelers.. :o

As any season modeler will till you the eye can be fooled in seeing things that isn't what they appear.I call it the "Hollywood effect".

I would use Plastruct solid square shape or flat strips painted white for marble for the interior.The work benches can be made from Plastructs. C channel.

The track in the floor can be scribe.The lights can be made with Plastruct.

You would scratch build the factory using the same techniques use in HO.

See not so hard after all.

N Scale is a modeling scale just like HO and its not that hard...

[MountainMan]

However, what fools the human eye from average viewing distance does not fool the souless eye of the camera closeup.

[Ralph]

I've found that to be true on my layout many times. I intentionally take photos of areas I'm not sure about to see what might be improved.
Ralph

[Brakie]

However, what fools the human eye from average viewing distance does not fool the souless eye of the camera closeup.

Ah yes,the cyclops that can't be fooled-or can it? Again one must use the "Hollywood" approach for such close ups.

[train_guy]

Very interesting thoughts,I for one basically have chosen what i model according my own personal preference(appeal,cost,era,etc.For example as far as Boxcars are concerned i prefer the Berwick & Gunderson "Hi-Cubes"...I just like the height of them compared to standard 50"&60" 5277 sqft boxcars,or the smaller 40' boxcars.Considering the fact that my future switching layout will consist more of boxcars than any other type of rolling stock.The standard boxcar just doesn't appeal to me compared to the Hi-cube.The Hi-cube can handle realistically more weight and cargo,and i really like the "Excessive height" labeled on both ends with the background in white.I think it looks really cool.I prefer the Double-door,over the single door.The DD looks more "stealthy lookin".Since the majority of my industry's will be Automotive parts,I feel the Hi-cube best fits what i need.I have considered the 86'ft boxcar,but most of those were produced to carry auto/truck engines,and basically would take up alot of room on a switching layout.A majority of my Hi-cubes are Athearn Genesis Berwick & Gunderson 60' boxcars and Exactrail 50' Gunderson Hi cubes.I think these are the only manufacturers of the Hi cube,except for Walthers,and i have a few of those too.Considering the fact that my layout will be based in the Metro Detroit area,their are alot of Auto suppliers in this area.Most Auto producers out source their supply of parts to smaller companys to make their parts for them.A good example is Lier,they manufacturer the seat frames,and other parts for Auto manufacturers.Most of these companys plants are much smaller in size compared to a Auto production plant.I know of plants as small as 10,000 sq ft,which to model on a HO layout would be fairly simple to do(scratch built of course)

An issue i consider greatly is "Detail"...does the model have underbody details(brake resevoir,airlines,uncoupler levers,etc.),seperate handrails,brake wheel,platform,etc.Granted on some models i can add the details,but i prefer ready to run rolling stock.Again size is also a determing factor of the rolling stock that i choose.For instance tank cars,most of my tank cars are 17,600 gallon -20,7000 gallon tank cars,which carry liquid sugar,liqiud propane,corn syrup.relatively short in length and can handle a #6 switch without any problems.Since my layout will consist of #6 switch's alot of longer rolling stock would be inpractical to run on my layout(86ft flatcars,86' autoracks,passenger cars,intermodal well cars,etc).I do how-ever have in my collection some articulated autoracks(modern)which will be for the purpose of inbound autos/trucks from the port of L.A which will consist mostly of overseas manufacturers of autos/truck/suvs(i.e Mercedez Benz,BMW,Audi,Volkswagen)Since most manufacturers of 1:87 scale vehicles are producing Foreign autos and not American,I decided to model a small 2 track yard for this purpose.I also chose 2 & 4 bay hoppers,just cause i like them and they are short in length so i can fit more of them on my layout.The 2 bay hoppers will serve my local cement factory,and the liquid sugar,corn syrup tankcars(Atlas,Intermountain) and 4 bay hoppers(Athearn genesis 5161 cu ft trinity)(Flour) will serve my commercial bakery(Name yet to be determined).

I appologize for jumping all over the place relative to the subject matter of this thread,but i just get "excited"talkin' bout this kinda stuff.My brain is 47 years old and it's not as sharp as it used to be.So if i go off on a tangent...forgive me.

...continuing with the subject rolling stock.Coil cars and Gondola's are another part of my collection which i chose to add to my collection...why?...auto parts,die stamping of metal parts.My coil cars(Red Caboose) haul in the rolls of steel to my stamping plant(auto related),and the Gondola's(Exactrail Thrall gons) serve 2 purposes,one being they haul away the scrap metal from the stamping plant and are returned to the manufacturer to be melted down to make new steel,and they are used to bring in additional rolls of coiled steel.(Steel manufacturer will not be modeled on my layout,maybe in a future expansion).

[FCIN]

Larry;
Very interesting discussion you've got going here. Not sure how I missed it before...

Many of us buy freight cars that we like,just gotta have or perhaps like in my case a love for boxcars especially the IPD short line cars that was numerous in the 70s and we end up with excess number of the same type of car then we really
need.

Same here - the IPD cars where very clean, colorful and very numerous back in "my era" (late 70's-mid 80's), so as decals and factory decorated models became available - I couldn't resist. So now I probably have far too many of those IPD cars in relationship to connecting line/home road cars, although some of the industries I'm contemplating having on the layout would sure see a lot of them at the loading dock. I have managed to acquire a few cars that won't fit into my era (CSXT, CR, NS, BNSF for example) and those will get the airbrush/decals at some point.

Choosing industries..
I fully believe the bigger the better..I just like Godzilla size industries that look like they actually need rail service.IMHO even 3 or 4 large industries on a small layout looks better then several small industries that looks like a 53 foot trailer would max out the receiving area..

Couldn't agree more. Even one large industry that receives/ships several different types of cars might be a better choice for an ISL then 6 small industries that in the "real world" might receive one car a month.

IMHO, working an industry where several cars, even of the same type, must be spotted at specific locations, gives you a lot more "operational interest" than just shoving a car or cut of cars in to a track where there is little or no need to place these cars on a specific spot. A grain elevator or coal tipple being two such examples. You also will have to pull and re-spot cars depending on when they were received or when they are ready to be shipped. Just because I placed 4 cars at Temple-Inland Containers last operating session, doesn't mean those 4 cars will all pull on the next operating session. I might even have more cars then their track can hold at one time and have to find a place to constructively place them until they can actually be placed.

I had considered basing my ISL on one of the large distilleries around here. Coal hoppers, covered hoppers, box cars and tank cars would be the rolling stock and every car has to be spotted where the distillery needs them. Ruled it out though, mainly because I spent many a long night switching these places for real and I just wanted a bit more variety as far as industries. Even so, would make a good prototype for an ISL.

So, I've ended up looking for industries that would match the type of cars I have acquired and that are also industries that I see in my part of the country. Box cars, covered hoppers, tank cars, bulkhead flats, even mechanical refrigerators. I also look for industries where the same type of car can be used for more than one commodity.

Covered Hoppers: I'm a huge fan of grain elevators even though they are few and far between around here, but I've seen all sorts and sizes of them when I'm out rail fanning. I have several models of grain elevators that I've acquired over the past few years, but have ruled that out as a main industry, because rural or small town grain "collection" elevators are very seasonal in nature. More common around here are feed mills, fertilizer dealers or large farm co-op's which tend to be more year around in nature. Not far from where I live there is a large feed mill (think race horses and cattle) and in the same town there are two different fertilizer dealers. There are always several covered hoppers, even box cars and tank cars spotted at those places, and the structures would make for very interesting models.

Seems like everywhere you look these days, there is an industry that receives plastic pellets for making "something". But I prefer the gravity unloading grain/fertilizer type covered hopper (multiple uses for the same type car) over the larger pellet type cars. However, nothing to prevent me from having an off line customer periodically receive this type car and unload it on the team track. Depending on how the track plan evolves, I might even include a small facility that would receive plastic pellets every now and then. Such smaller facilities do exist.

Tank Cars: I'm going with corn syrup cars for a Coca-Cola plant. We have a Pepsi plant nearby that always has two or three of them on spot, but I'm a Coke fan! I've run across several Coke facilities at various locations on Bing/Google that have plenty of these tank cars on spot. Also like the idea that I can place that industry along the front edge of the layout and need only model a concrete pad, a small pump house and the unloading pipes.

Bulkhead Flats: Back in "my era", lots of lumber, building products, even brick, on bulkhead flats were very common around here. Of course 50 foot box cars are more than suitable for these shipments too and were also very common place (again, multiple uses for the same type cars). Seems like even the smallest lumber yard around here had their own rail spur and if not, they used the local team tracks. Of course, if your era is the late 60's and prior, then lumber shipped in 40 foot box cars was the norm.

Box Cars: All sorts of potential industries for box cars. Container manufacturing facilities receiving pulp board is one that comes to mind. There is also a regional publishing facility not far from here R. R. Donnelly & Sons, that is always full of 50 foot box cars. A large trans-load and/or storage warehouse is another very common box car industry. And again, we have multiple uses for the same type of car. Even these days, looking around and paying attention to those big "shoe box" structures in industrial parks will yield industries with plenty of box cars spotted.

Refrigerator Cars: They are a good candidate for the team track too. We used to frequently receive various commodities for the local school system in reffers, that were unloaded on the team tracks. These were usually stop-off shipments of turkeys, cheese, and butter. An example of another shipment that could show up on a team track and provide some variety in rolling stock.

Should we match industries-elevator to grain mill or grain mill to bakery?
IMHO no..Why? I fully believe off line inbound/outbound loads is superior...

Agreed! Although the same types of cars can be used at different industries (good for model railroad purposes), I've never been comfortable with the concept of loading a car at one industry and then moving it a few feet on the layout and spotting it for another, then repeating the cycle, unless it was a very large layout that could support something like a coal mine to power plant or similar operation. Exception would be a car unloaded by one industry and then re-spotted for loading by another. Granted, depending on your era and if rail transportation was "the" only way to go, then such moves would be okay between towns (but not likely within the same town), just not my cup of tea.

I'm far more used to seeing a car loaded/unloaded at an industry and moving offline to its home rails or destination. Even the assigned pool cars we used to have around here for whiskey loading, would not reappear back home for several weeks after being shipped out. In our model world, that 50 foot double door or combination door box car might come on line today loaded with pulp board or printing paper and a few operating sessions later, reappear on the layout loaded with brick, plywood or some "odd" load for team track delivery.

Catch All
The team or distribution (modern speak)track can be a life saver if you have cars with no where to go.A load of John Deeres can be off loaded at a team track as can a tank car,plastic pellets etc..

A team or trans-load track is always a great industry to include on a layout of any size. Just about anything might show up to be loaded or unloaded there. As you can no doubt tell, I consider it an essential industry. You can justify just about anything being received at a team or trans-load track. Seems like that hasn't changed much at all over the years. Many modern day short lines depend heavily on getting offline customers to ship/receive cars on a convenient, nearby track.

The industrial siding
A short word here..What we need to remember is the industry siding is privately own by the company that uses it.The serving railroad track ends at the derail. ...

Just a side note here (off topic comment) - that statement reminded me of the way things were (and I assume still are) when a customer required their own track to be built to their facility. The customer had to pay for construction of the spur and the switch, but was given credit for every car shipped/received to offset these costs and as an incentive to ship by rail.

For example, the local Lowe's Lumber dealer constructed their first facility next to the L&N main line on the edge of town had a short spur constructed into their facility. They were given a credit of $25 (1970's figures) for each car they received. Once the spur was constructed, we were spotting cars for them on an almost daily basis, but that slacked off over time and eventually they (Lowe's) built a new, much larger facility on the other side of town with no rail service at all, and went back to team track unloading for a very brief period, until trucks took over everything they received. I guess they ended up eating the cost of constructing that siding!

Don't mean to be so long winded, but perhaps I've given someone a few ideas to consider.