White glue or matte medium for securing ballast?
#1
15 years ago on my 1st layout, I used the typical Elmer's white glue, diluted with tap water mixture to glue down ballast (soaking the ballast with 'wet water first). As soon as the solution dried all the N scale Atlas code 80 (what I used at the time) appeared to 'tarnish' (almost a 'weathered' look). This was only where I either sprayed or using a eye dropped applied the mixture. On my 2nd layout I'm using Peco code 55 (if that matters). I don't want to have the same problem (though the affect is nice) since I'm concerned about it affecting connections between the sections of track (all flex track).

So, which is better: Elmer's white glue or, matte medium?? Also, how about the ratio for the 'glue' to water and water to isopropyl alcohol?
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#2
Both are effective, but the glue can look shiny. If your flex track connections are solid, I don't think either will have an effect. And since you did not seem to mind the "weathered" look, I am not quite sure what your question is... :?:

What are you looking to achieve this time round? Also, besides spraying or using an eye dropper, how else do you apply your glue mix?


Andrew
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#3
I didn't notice any 'shininess' the 1st time around, but I wasn't looking for it at the time.
I wasn't the "look" that is my concern, but conductivity between track sections.
Spraying, then a eye dropper for the application.
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#4
As long as you don't power the track when it is wet, I don't think you should have an issue with either glue or matte medium.

I use "Dollar Store" alcohol for my wet water, as it is already at 50% or so. I mix my glue so it is like cream - maybe 50-50 with distilled water (from the dehumidifier in summer). No problems. This is also the method used by 90% of the guys at the club, and I have not heard of any electrical issues once everything is dry and solid.

If that is a concern, you could either solder the track sections at the joiners, and then cut expansion or electrical breaks after the fact, or solder jumpers between the sections. If you run a bus wire though, and have feeders for each section of track, jumpers and soldering are both redundant.

Andrew
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#5
I use white Elmers glue & tap water mixed about approximately 50/50, or sometimes a little more dilute. I put a teeny drop of dishwashing detergent into the mixture to help it flow better. For wetting, I've used both alcohol and soapy water. I prefer a small spray bottle that puts out a fine mist (those finger action hair spray bottles work great) and fill it with tap water and a few drops of dishwashing detergent. I've used rubbing alcohol, too, with good success. But, the detergent works fine and is cheaper and smells better.
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#6
videobruce Wrote:As soon as the solution dried all the N scale Atlas code 80 (what I used at the time) appeared to 'tarnish' (almost a 'weathered' look). This was only where I either sprayed or using a eye dropped applied the mixture. I don't want to have the same problem (though the affect is nice) since I'm concerned about it affecting connections between the sections of track (all flex track)

If by that you are stating that connections between sections of track, are accomplished only by the rail joiners ?
Each individual piece of rail, should have a wire soldered to it, and electrical connections should be via the wire, with the rail joiner only there to keep the ends of the rail aligned. Saves you from the eventual headache of " trying to find where the voltage went to ".
As to the "tarnishing" ? I've never had that happen with a 50/50 water/white glue, with several drops of detergent added as a surfactant. Maybe you should have your tap water "tested". :o Smile

A product that " turns only the rail rust color ", while gluing the ballast ?? --- Now there's something I would definitely buy !!
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#7
I wet the area with Windex, then I use a 50-50 mix of Elmer's and blue winfshield washer fluid (the blue disappears as the glue dries), then I am very generous with the liquid as I let it drip from a craft paint plastic squeeze bottle . I make sure everything is soaked. Joints on my layout are all soldered , and I think everything must be holding the expansion of the rails to the verticle much the same as rail anchors work for the prototype. I only heat the building when I am working on the trains, though it has never got below 38 degrees in the building, and haven't had any problems.
As for the Atlas "tarnish" I have noticed that Atlas track is yellowish compared to the "cheaper" model power flex track, but most of us weather the rail and it would really be hard to notice the yellowing on only the rail head.

Charlie
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#8
I use white glue for affixing the ballast and pre-wet using water with a few drops of dish detergent. I have also used matte medium, and the only difference is the cost, with matte medium being almost four times as expensive. You've obviously ballasted before, Bruce, but for others who haven't yet done so, here's a link to my Procedure for ballasting.... It's not the only way to do it, of course, but works well for me.

I also get that "tarnished" appearance on the rails when ballasting, and it doesn't seem to be restricted to any one brand of track. Here's a "before" photo of an area where I changed the track lay-out:

[Image: Freightcarphotosandlayoutviews018.jpg]

...and the same area an hour-or-so after re-working it and re-ballasting. Note how yellow the rails are in the re-done area:

[Image: CameraTwopix006.jpg]

The trains were in place only for the photo and were then removed. The track was cleaned the next day, but the discolouration returned, and continued to do so until the entire area had completely dried - it took a few days, as I always like to soak things completely to get a solid bond right down to the base (bare plywood in this area). Once the area was dry, the track was cleaned and has remained clean. Indeed, the only time I have to clean track is after ballasting or installing ground foam nearby, and my suspicion is that the yellowing is attributable to the wet water, as no glue is applied near the track when adding foam - the glue is applied locally with a plastic squeeze bottle, while the pre-wetting is done with a spray bottle, which does allow some overspray.
Like my good friend Charlie, I solder all of my rail joiners, so there's never any worry about power connections.

Wayne
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#9
I've never had success diluting white glue, so I use the WS scenic cement. I mist the area with alcohol and then add glue with an eyedropper -- slow but controllable.
For ground foam where no track is involved I use a sprayer for the glue as well.
David
Moderato ma non troppo
Perth & Exeter Railway Company
Esquesing & Chinguacousy Radial Railway
In model railroading, there are between six and two hundred ways of performing a given task.
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#10
I have been using the Peco code 55 in N scale and Elmer's white glue mixed 50/50 with water for over 20 years now and have had zero problems but I DO NOT rely on rail joiners. Every joint is soldered and wires are soldered to each side of joints with insulated joiners. As far as the track getting tarnished I wouldn't know as all my track is painted.
Mike

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#11
Quote:A product that " turns only the rail rust color ", while gluing the ballast ?? --- Now there's something I would definitely buy !!
Here are pics of the track/rail in question (Atlas code 80) and a section of Peco code 80 behind it.
Granted, the example is 15 years old and I'm sure it has 'tarnished' more since then, but you can get the idea what I'm talking about. The last photo shows it best.


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#12
doctorwayne; Thanks for the photos and especially for the link, but, I couldn't help but notice (w/o getting to far OT) the thread you did on ballasting, the white balance was off from the 1st image to most of the others (turning the pics into magenta) that kinda defeated the benefit of the posts.

But, I could still tell the difference. That appears to be what I ran into to some degree.

Why don't you make that a "sticky"??
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#13
You're right about the white balance in those photos, Bruce, although the main reason that I used them was to show the degree to which stuff needs to be wetted and the amount of glue mixture which can be used, yet still be unnoticeable once dry. That particular area shows ground cover application only, although the technique is similar for ballast.

I just finished replacing those photos with ones which have a little better balance. I could never understand why that camera adjusted itself most, but not all, of the time, even within the same photo-taking session. :?

When I was doing the ballasting, I was enjoying it so much that I never thought to take photos. In my opinion, painting rail and ballasting are two of the easiest tasks available to us, and two which give the most bang for the buck.

Wayne
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#14
That is a extreme example. Usually digital cameras are far better than that, but with my camera, I see shifts in colors from one shot to another. That should be able to be corrected with a photo editing program as I do it all the time. My guess is the high amount of green in those shots caused the auto white balance to drop the green level giving it the 'magenta' tint. See below. First attachment is the corrected version of the 2nd that was posted in your thread. Still not correct, but that was as far as I could go. Smile

I was just surprised that those were posted as it was obvious you have a real attention to detail including the photography. Thumbsup


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#15
videobruce Wrote:I was just surprised that those were posted as it was obvious you have a real attention to detail including the photography. Thumbsup

Despite the colour being "off", the original photos depicted that which I wished to show, namely the amounts of water and glue which I normally use. While some folks seemingly get acceptable results with lesser amounts, most of the complaints which I've heard on this topic are addressed by not being so stingy with the components. Icon_lol Part of that, I think, can be blamed on not wanting to wait for the area to dry. Misngth

Wayne
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