UP's 844 Rolled By
#1
Sitting here in the hotel in downtown Wichita...tv running and the a/c going...and it seems to me that I hear a steam whistle. On a whim, I looked up Union Pacific's steam schedule and sure enough...UP's Challenger rolled right by the hotel here in Wichita and I missed it. Wallbang
Mark

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#2
If you are talking about UP 844, it's a northern, 4-8-4
If it was the Challenger, it's 3985, and this is what you missed. Icon_twisted Icon_twisted 357
   
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#3
Herc Driver Wrote:Sitting here in the hotel in downtown Wichita...tv running and the a/c going...and it seems to me that I hear a steam whistle. On a whim, I looked up Union Pacific's steam schedule and sure enough...UP's Challenger rolled right by the hotel here in Wichita and I missed it. Wallbang

Ah, crap!

Sorry about that Mark! It's been too long since I've seen big steam - moving on it's own, that is - I think my last sighting would be in the early 90's when NS still had a big steam program. NKP 765 will be running Norfolk Southern rails this summer - probably more or less on or along it's home rails - I don't intend to miss that one.

Better luck next time!

Matt
Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio
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#4
I had a chance to see #844 a couple of years back when it stopped here on its trip back home...An awesome engine, to say the least....


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Gus (LC&P).
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#5
Great shot !!! you can clearly see that 844's drivers are as tall as the vehicle ! How's that for a sense of proportion !!! Big Grin
We always learn far more from our own mistakes, than we will ever learn from another's advice.
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Lead me not into temptation.....I can find it myself!
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#6
You guys are so right and I was completely wrong...that was not the Challenger that rolled by. I mistakenly looked at the UP website and read it wrong, thinking one engine was moving when I was looking at another. Sorry to mislead anyone on that...my fault. Yes...it was 844. The elephant ears threw me when I was quickly looking at the UP website and out the window to catch a glimpse of the engine roll by.

One of these days, their steam engines will be in the same town I'm in while flying around the country, and I'll get another chance. Or at least...I'll hope that that chance.

But I still didn't see either one of them... Wallbang
Mark

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#7
The 844 is currently sitting about 5 miles from me, across the Missouri River in Omaha on a siding next to TD Ameritrade ballpark where the NCAA College World Series is being played. They bring it most every year, but lots of special doings this year because it is the 125th anniversary of the UPRR.
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#8
If my weak mind serves me correctly the drivers on the 844 are either 78 or 80 inches. I'd have to reseach it, but I'm about 99% sure it is one or the other.

Herc Driver ( I assume that is 130 Herc?), most of the time the 844 and 3985 are sitting in the shops in Chyenne, WY :-)
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#9
The size of the engine is staggering....But what is more impressive is its mechanical "perfection". When it began to move I was expecting all sorts of creaks and groans...Not to be...It started up as smoothly as your grandpa's Cadillac...Amazing.... Eek
Gus (LC&P).
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#10
The last couple of years we have seen either the 844 or the 3985 through here probably 3 or 4 times a year. Council Bluffs is also home to the UPRR business train that is powered by a consist of A-B-B-A E-8's. There must be at least 15 shiny bright yellow cars of all varieties that can make up the rest of the consist. They are stored in the old CNW shops on the north edge of Council Bluffs. They also do a lot of refurbishing of old rolling stock there.

Sometime last year we also had a visit from a Chinese steamer owned by the Iowa Interstate (IAIS) Railroad, a regional railroad that runs between Council Bluffs and Chicago on the old Rock Island mainline. IAIS moves a lot of containers for the UPRR and has their yard here in Council Bluffs.
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#11
Steamtrains Wrote:The size of the engine is staggering....But what is more impressive is its mechanical "perfection". When it began to move I was expecting all sorts of creaks and groans...Not to be...It started up as smoothly as your grandpa's Cadillac...Amazing.... Eek

Cast steel frame + all roller bearings have a lot to do with that. Locomotives with fabricated frames and a load behind them, now they'll groan!

What I find amazing, flabbergasting, astounding, is that that piece of industrial art cast frame - really the heart of the whole thing - has been in *constant* service pulling real load at higher speeds for 65 years. Given that steam locomotives are much rougher on themselves than diesels, that's astounding / flabbergasting / amazing. Overall a testament to a solid modern-steam design by Alco.

The above amazement assumes that the frame has never been exchanged with one of the part donator FEFs. Does anyone know this for sure?

How many times have the cylinders (part of the cast frame) been re-lined?
Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio
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#12
Fluesheet Wrote:Cast steel frame + all roller bearings have a lot to do with that.
What I find amazing, flabbergasting, astounding, is that that piece of industrial art cast frame - really the heart of the whole thing - has been in *constant* service pulling real load at higher speeds for 65 years. Given that steam locomotives are much rougher on themselves than diesels, that's astounding . Overall a testament to a solid modern-steam design by Alco.
The above amazement assumes that the frame has never been exchanged with one of the part donator FEFs. Does anyone know this for sure? How many times have the cylinders (part of the cast frame) been re-lined?

All of the "wear points"....those contact points where one item moves against another.... have replaceable bearing surfaces, which are inspected and replaced often. Even the journal boxes, ( driver axel bearings ), have renewable bearing surfaces between them and the actual frame. Combined with the equalizer rigging, that evenly distributes the driver weight on all axles ( even pilot and trailing ), there's not as much stress on the frame as you you might suspect.
A diesel locomotive frame, sits on two support points, one for each truck. there's a lot more vertical stress on it than on a steam ;locomotive frame.
We always learn far more from our own mistakes, than we will ever learn from another's advice.
The greatest place to live life, is on the sharp leading edge of a learning curve.
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#13
We are having the annual Railroad Days here in Omaha and Council Bluffs this weekend. Six different venues where you can pretty much get your fill of trains for very little money. Several museums, including the newly refurbished UP Museum here in CB all worth the time. No steam though since we had the 844 for almost 2 weeks last month. Thumbsup
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#14
Warning: I got on a bit of a monologue below - but I love the topic! (Herc, apologies for derailing your thread)

Sumpter250 Wrote:All of the "wear points"....those contact points where one item moves against another.... have replaceable bearing surfaces, which are inspected and replaced often.

Hi Sumpter!
Yes, true enough - my amazement is around the part that is not replaced - the part on which every bearing surface is directly or indirectly attached: the engine bed. Older steam had built-up frames in which alignment of anything was never a given and were a source of heavy maintenance. This also connects to my comment about steam locomotives beating themselves up - reciprocating weight (piston, crosshead and a component of the main rod) had to be offset on the main driver. I've read (this is mostly book knowledge with a smattering of info from people with steam experience) that stationary steam locomotives generally had about a 50% rotational overbalance on the flywheel to compensate for the reciprocating forces. This was manageable when the wheel could be held in a fixed position (i.e. bolted to a factory floor). However, applying that much overbalance to a railroad steam locomotive was tremendously destructive to rail and locomotive as the drivers hammered the rail while rotating, leading to broken frames and rail - and sometimes at very low speeds (25 - 35 mph). One argument I've found interesting is that suspension exacerbated the issue as it allowed the wheels that much more travel, and with no damping of the motion - no shock absorbers on these guys!

Rule of thumb was to set overbalance to about 30 - 35%. This was acceptable for rail and roadbed (hammering was reduced), but aggravated the problem of yaw - the locomotive "nosing" back and forth as a result of the now underbalanced reciprocating forces. This was also damaging to rail (knocked it out of gauge left and right) and made it difficult to keep the frame in tram (all axles perpendicular to the long axis of the locomotive). Two and four wheel leading trucks helped dampen nosing - one reason you see four wheel leading trucks on faster locomotives. As a bit of a tangent, one reason that N&W's J could attain high speeds (111mph) with relatively small 70" drivers was a due to a leading truck centering design that had stiff resistance to nosing. General thinking was that there was not enough room on the driver for enough weight to control nosing at high speeds; this design compensated for that. N&W's compromise gave the J excellent acceleration and maintenance of speed with heavy consists up significant grades (due to the small drivers), with the capability of speed, but at the cost of an extremely stiff locomotive that wasn't much good for any other task.

Back on topic - so steam locomotives are rough on themselves, and built-up (bolted together) frames were less and less up to the task of retaining tram, alignment with the cylinders, and I don't know what else. About the time that steam was getter faster and more powerful, steel casting technology was improving, eventually resulting in the ability to cast the entire frame - cylinders included - from pilot to buffer plate. Union Pacific's second (I think) and final order of 4-12-2's had one piece cast frames (and with the additional complexity of three cylinders, to boot!) that were fantastically huge. Flip through the fantastic book "The Union Pacific Type" by William Kratville for some casting and machining photos of these particular engine beds.

Cast steel "engine beds" had become more and more common in the late thirties and early forties, especially on big, fast steam. They were a HUGE improvement over built up frames given the forces that steam locomotives subject themselves to, minimizing frame related maintenance, breakage and tram issues. Secondary items such as wear on rod and axle journals was also reduced since these parts were held in rock-solid alignment compared to built up frames.

Anyone who has the chance to approach a modern steam locomotive closely should take a long look at these cast pieces of (huge) - they are beautiful.

All of the above is why I find the 844 such a marvel. 65 years of pounding, and still running!
Matt Goodman
Columbus, Ohio
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