Distillery

[sailormatlac]

I know this subject is old as the world! I've read a few threads here about distilleries, but I was curious about what kind of cars were used during the late 50s/early 60s in Canada. I'm thinking about replicating the Montmorency Distillery that was served by our prototype and produced Dominion Whiskey back then.

I'm always on the impression boxcars would be used back then, but I would like to know if covered hoppers were taking a share of the food market by then. I know CN had a few airslide hoppers for sugar service in 1960. Any hints are welcomed.

Matt

[Sumpter250]

To begin with, grain would have been one of the most needed products delivered, I would guess "covered hoppers" of the era.
The bottles, would go in cardboard boxes, and would most likely be shipped in boxcars.
The "revenuers" would be "shipped" in their own choice of vehicles.
:oops: :oops: :oops: wait, this is supposed to be a "legal" distillery.......right? no "revenuers" involved.

[Charlie B]

:oops: :oops: :oops: wait, this is supposed to be a "legal" distillery.......right? no "revenuers" involved.

Pete according to everyone that we talked to at the Schenley distillery, which was legal, they had their own batch of resident revenuers. Nothing got out without paying the tax...
Charlie

[teejay]

Here in our city we had the Hiram Walkers Distillery , and still do ,although it isn't booming like it once was . You can start by googling images of Old Hiram Walkers Distillery ....if I come across anything else I'll give you a heads up ....Seagrams Distillery was I think in Montreal , try it too .

T

[Sumpter250]

Nothing got out without paying the tax... Charlie

What was I thinking Of course all the TAXES had to be paid :oops:


or, not

[sailormatlac]

Here in our city we had the Hiram Walkers Distillery , and still do ,although it isn't booming like it once was . You can start by googling images of Old Hiram Walkers Distillery ....if I come across anything else I'll give you a heads up ....Seagrams Distillery was I think in Montreal , try it too .

T

Excellent hint Teejay, I once heard Montmorency Distillery was taken over by Seagrams. I'll take a look too.

Sumpter: Totally legit, I think! Joke aside, there used to be a hidden alambic in my grandfather's house dating back to the 20s (the bootlegger was a distant great uncle of my father). We found it hidden in an inaccessible attic 5 years ago when renovating the house. I wouldn't have drank anything coming out of there.

I should get a book about CN covered hoppers. Slabside hoppers are well-known, but I always think about them in cement service. CN was so "enthusiast" about grain boxcars!

While searching, I found this neat picture of Waterloo Distillery in Ontario... Wow, that's a fine building to model with a tile-patterned mansard roof.



Matt

[teejay]

Matt , another possible source would be to join <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.shorpy.com">http://www.shorpy.com</a><!-- m --> ...free , tons of historical photos ....also check library of congress site but it will be mostly U.S stuff I think , still might be beneficial .

T

[Mr Fixit]

It is my understanding from reading various MR articles that Canadian railroads continued to use boxcars for grain service far later than in the US due to the gross load limits imposed on Granger lines from having used lighter rail during construction.
The problem then became one of the cost of rail replacement versus the possible revenue to be generated by infrequently used line versus truck competition.
I think the reference article comes from one of the Industries you can Model books.
Hope this helps.
Mark

[sailormatlac]

It is my understanding from reading various MR articles that Canadian railroads continued to use boxcars for grain service far later than in the US due to the gross load limits imposed on Granger lines from having used lighter rail during construction.
The problem then became one of the cost of rail replacement versus the possible revenue to be generated by infrequently used line versus truck competition.
I think the reference article comes from one of the Industries you can Model books.
Hope this helps.
Mark

Mark, I'm well aware of those boxcars that survived late into the 80s (some into 90s). Most of them were also rebuilt with government subsidies, making it even more interesting for these light rail branchline. You don't upgrade the line and get bucks from the federal, a nice deal! ;-)

I should reformulate my question: Was it "common" to see covered hoppers haul grain on CNR in late 1950s? Lots of boxcars were in use from elevators to elevators, that's a given. Was it the same for "alimentary" purpose like a distillery?

Pictures of QRL&PCo after the de-electrification in 1959 are rare, the same for freight trains of the previous era (photographs and historians of the time where much more interested in passenger electric trains). Thus, I have to guess what would have been a normal freight train on this line.

Matt

[FCIN]

I know that the distilleries here in town (Old Taylor, Old Crow, Old Grand-Dad, and Schenley's George T. Stagg Distillery) were receiving grain in covered hoppers by the early 1960's. But as late as 1978-79, we'd often get the odd box car of grain (usually rye or malt). I remember us getting box car loads of malt or rye in FDDM and RI box cars that were probably loaded at elevators on poorly maintained branch lines.

The covered hoppers gradually grew in size with 100 ton capacity being the norm by the late 1960's. Most of the corn came from elevators in southern Indiana or Louisville and was usually shipped in L&N "Big Blue" covered hoppers, although it wasn't unusual to see private owner covered hoppers such as Indiana Farm Bureau. We got a lot of SOO Line "Color Mark" cars which I always liked because of the wheat logo on them.

As has been previously mentioned, your best bet is to try and locate photos for distilleries in your era and see what types of cars show up in the photos. It would be safe to say that at least through the 1950's that most of your grain would be received in box cars.

[sailormatlac]

I know that the distilleries here in town (Old Taylor, Old Crow, Old Grand-Dad, and Schenley's George T. Stagg Distillery) were receiving grain in covered hoppers by the early 1960's. But as late as 1978-79, we'd often get the odd box car of grain (usually rye or malt). I remember us getting box car loads of malt or rye in FDDM and RI box cars that were probably loaded at elevators on poorly maintained branch lines.

The covered hoppers gradually grew in size with 100 ton capacity being the norm by the late 1960's. Most of the corn came from elevators in southern Indiana or Louisville and was usually shipped in L&N "Big Blue" covered hoppers, although it wasn't unusual to see private owner covered hoppers such as Indiana Farm Bureau. We got a lot of SOO Line "Color Mark" cars which I always liked because of the wheat logo on them.

As has been previously mentioned, your best bet is to try and locate photos for distilleries in your era and see what types of cars show up in the photos. It would be safe to say that at least through the 1950's that most of your grain would be received in box cars.

Thanks Ed for the first hand account. So I guess boxcars will be the rule for my era. I kind of expected this! I'm curious about the unloading process. I've seen pictures and videos at elevator. Was it a similar process for at the distillery? Time to read again the excellent thread about distilleries.

BTW, your schema of Old Grand Dad distillery was very uselful to understand how Montmorency Distillery worked.

SOO Line "Color Mark" have always been one of my favorite grain car ever too. Nowadays, they are completely weathered and rusted, you barely see the wheat logo anymore. It was my first ever Intermountain Railway car when I was in high school and probably my first prototypical car ever.

I'm actually stripping online archives in Quebec. So far, only pictures of corporate headquarters and portraits of Board members and CEO show up. I'll continue, who knows. Showing a siding full of car isn't very glamour! I'll try the local historical association. I remember they once made a short article about this very industry. Maybe there's still people who worked there that are still alive. QRL&PCo once served 3 distillery at a time.

Matt

[teejay]

So Matt ....are you having a rye and coke ( or three ) while doing all the research ??

T

[sailormatlac]

So Matt ....are you having a rye and coke ( or three ) while doing all the research ??

T

Ahaha! That would have been nice to forget about my unlucky searches!

BTW, I found a 50s ad showing Dominion Ten bottle in front of Montmorency Falls...

At least, the 9' x 2' module plan is taking shape and the station model is almost completed.

Matt

[FCIN]

Thanks Ed for the first hand account. So I guess boxcars will be the rule for my era. I kind of expected this! I'm curious about the unloading process. I've seen pictures and videos at elevator. Was it a similar process for at the distillery?

Matt;
Although I never got the chance to actually watch them unload a box car of grain (they were few and far between) I do know the process they used to unload them - at least how they were doing it in the 60s through 70s. They used a vacuum system to unload the cars. They simply opened the box car door, placed the vacuum hose over the grain door and sucked it out. Once the lading got down close to the car floor, workmen would remove the grain door and using shovels they would move the remaining grain toward the hose to finish unloading it. Of course in earlier years, when all the grain was received in box cars (and manpower was cheaper), they'd open the car door, break out the grain door and after letting what grain would spill out on its own; they'd shovel the rest of it out into a bin located next to the track. Probably what you've seen in photos of box cars being unloaded. Ah, the good old days!

The Old Taylor distillery used the vacuum system to unload all their grain cars. Covered hoppers were unloaded by placing a metal pan under the hopper, opening the hopper gate, and as the grain poured out, the attached vacuum system pulled the grain to the top of their small elevator. The Old Crow, Old Grand-Dad and Stagg distilleries all unloaded their covered hoppers through grating between the rails.

This photo of the abandoned Old Taylor Distillery shows the now vine covered, neat little concrete and sheet metal grain elevator they built in the late 50s. I've included it as shows the vacuum pipe still in place from the headhouse down to where the grain track was located. They usually spotted two covered hoppers toward the end of the spur in front of the large concrete warehouse you see on the right and as the cars were unloaded, they used an electric cable car mover to pull the cars toward the switch. What looks like a gravel road in the foreground is the roadbed of the main track through the distillery. The piping you see going over the former roadbed was for moving the grain to the mash house on the opposite side of the track.     Old Taylor sure didn't look like this when the distillery was still in operation!

[Brakie]

I apologize for the highjack but,I gotta say it or burst...

Ed,Your photo reeks of field mice and that means there's probably some copperheads slithering about in the weeds.. :o