VGN 2-10-10-2 - my 2014 challenge
#16
modelsof1900 Wrote:Both motors will mounted and fixed into the boiler and also the front motor will not rotate.

I still see some potential problems, unless you split the boiler horizontally at the running board. Otherwise, you would need an opening in the bottom of the forward section of the boiler big enough to pass the motor and mount in and out -- another big compromise. And how do you install the rubber band and get everything clear of the hinge between the units?

Now, you could treat the whole thing as basically a ship in a bottle and pass the whole assembly through the firebox in some way -- if you do, it will be most impressive. However, just the task of disassembling, painting, and reassembling an articulated and getting it all to work again (which I've done now and then) the way the manufacturer did it is trouble enough for me, especially given everything else you have to do.

I'll be most impressed when I see this.
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#17
jwb, a picture for you.

[Image: vgn-ae_026kk.jpg]

I'm sure that the cutout is large enough for a well mounting of motors including the rope mechanism. What I must first remove and after give a new place is the weight and its mounting plate. However this will not be a big problem, I think.
Cheers, Bernd

Please visit also my website www.us-modelsof1900.de.
You can read some more about my model projects and interests in my chronicle of facebook.
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#18
A 2-10-10-2 a challenge you say.. How about this?

ERIE RR


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#19
Erie, ok.
But triplexes, these are not "my" engines. I love the AE. And a challenge - yes, my rebuild will be a challenge, for me and with hope to own a really good model, after.
Cheers, Bernd

Please visit also my website www.us-modelsof1900.de.
You can read some more about my model projects and interests in my chronicle of facebook.
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#20
jwb Wrote:
modelsof1900 Wrote:Both motors will mounted and fixed into the boiler and also the front motor will not rotate.
I still see some potential problems, unless you split the boiler horizontally at the running board. Otherwise, you would need an opening in the bottom of the forward section of the boiler big enough to pass the motor and mount in and out -- another big compromise. And how do you install the rubber band and get everything clear of the hinge between the units?
Now, you could treat the whole thing as basically a ship in a bottle and pass the whole assembly through the firebox in some way -- if you do, it will be most impressive. However, just the task of disassembling, painting, and reassembling an articulated and getting it all to work again (which I've done now and then) the way the manufacturer did it is trouble enough for me, especially given everything else you have to do. I'll be most impressed when I see this.

jwb, when you have some time to browse, check this out: http://bigbluetrains.com/forum/viewtopic...=37&t=6394
The motor resides in the tender. I had to build a "sled" for the motor, and insert guides in the tender's water tank, so the motor would remain in alignment. A single screw, through the bottom of the tank, holds the "sled" in place. Cup and Ball universals, will couple the motor to the gear boxes ( still not received Eek ) .
The "motor sled idea" might be an option for the 2-10-10-2 "conversion".
We always learn far more from our own mistakes, than we will ever learn from another's advice.
The greatest place to live life, is on the sharp leading edge of a learning curve.
Lead me not into temptation.....I can find it myself!
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#21
Sumpter250 Wrote:... I had to build a "sled" for the motor, and insert guides in the tender's water tank, so the motor would remain in alignment. A single screw, through the bottom of the tank, holds the "sled" in place. ...
The "motor sled idea" might be an option for the 2-10-10-2 "conversion".

Sumpter,
really, a good idea that I should keep in my mind. Thanks!
Cheers, Bernd

Please visit also my website www.us-modelsof1900.de.
You can read some more about my model projects and interests in my chronicle of facebook.
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#22
modelsof1900 Wrote:This engine is a mallet, an compound engine. If it should I add a sound decoder then you will hear only the chuff-chuff of the front engine. The rear cylinders deliver the exhaust steam to front cylinders and you will hear ... What? Maybe an acoustic noise, also in a rhytmic sequence but not a clear chuff-chuff. This will only come from front cylinders.

Actually, it suddenly dawned on me a couple days after you posted this, I was thinking about the sound on DVDs of Norfolk and Western steam. There's basically no difference in what you hear between a Y6b, a compound, and an A, which is simple. I believe the reason is that the Ys started in simple and changed over to compound above a certain speed. I simply don't know if this applies to all compounds, although definitely some German compounds, like Borries, did work this way. Nor do I know if this applied to all US Mallets.

There are a couple of interesting issues here. One is that if you say I'm running my Mallet as a compound for sound decoder purposes, fine, you just use a simple single-loco sound unit. Great, no problem over the question of the units going in and out of sync. On the other hand, you have an interesting problem with sound on a Mallet: if it starts in simple, you use an articulated decoder that goes in and out of sync -- I think any decoder for UP, DM&IR, B&O, etc modern locos would apply. But even if the loco shifts to compound over a certain speed, the exhaust chuffs by then are coming out fast enough that you probably can't tell the difference there, either.

I have one of those early Powerhouse hybrid USRA 2-8-8-2s that I'm slowly working toward making for a Virginian USA, not ruling out the original "US" lettering, and now that I think of it, maybe I should look more closely into the simple vs compound issue.

For that matter, I have one of the BLI Erie Triplexes, and it has an in-and-out-of sync decoder, which I suspect is correct for any speed where you can differentiate the chuffs. A bigger problem for me is the Westinghouse air pump sound, since these locos had New York air compressors!
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#23
" A bigger problem for me is the Westinghouse air pump sound, since these locos had New York air compressors! "

Well................ Wink you got me with that one. Confusedhock: Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
I might have heard both, but then again, might not have been aware of which was which, and, can't remember "the difference" if there was one. I would strongly suspect that there would be little difference between them, what you hear is the steam exhaust, so there might be a timing difference.... but otherwise would sound alike.
We always learn far more from our own mistakes, than we will ever learn from another's advice.
The greatest place to live life, is on the sharp leading edge of a learning curve.
Lead me not into temptation.....I can find it myself!
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#24
Sumpter,
thanks for your opinion about air pumps. This theme is a very external one for me because I never did hear an American air pump in original.

jwb,
the sound of articulateds and mallet steam engines is not very complicated - but very often wrong realized at models.
First, take an articulated, more exactly a simple artikulated with four high pressure cylinders.
Each cylinder generated its own sound, two chuffs per wheel rotation. And four cylinders generate eight chuffs together.
However in many cases you can hear four double chuffs or also four single chuffs, because the wheel positions of front and rear engines run more or lesser synchronously. These eight steam chuffs merge a lot more to an indefinable noise. The single chuffs are no longer clearly to separate at articulateds, in contrast to the chuffs of two-cylinder engines.
Mallets thus compound engines are working a bit different. Only the front cylinders have exhaust pipes to exhaust nozzles in the smoke box and so you can hear only the sound of two cylinders, thus four chuffs. Ever! This is true even if a mallet is starting and high-pressure steam is given additionally to low-pressure cylinders. All steam of a mallet must go through low-pressure cylinders and after into exhaust nozzle in smokebox and smoke stack. Therefore four chuffs only at mallets!

.
.
. Sorry, I have deleted here a greater section of my text. Mayby I must write a correction about mallets of last level of develoment.
. I have a few other aspects found that I have not included in my description. A next post will follow with new desription.
. Thanks for your interest.
.
Cheers, Bernd

Please visit also my website www.us-modelsof1900.de.
You can read some more about my model projects and interests in my chronicle of facebook.
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#25
At about 2:26 on this video you see and hear a Y6b starting <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF-6FKD0pr0">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LF-6FKD0pr0</a><!-- m --> It is a single loco in helper service, and I'm pretty sure you're hearing 8 exhausts per revolution of the wheels.

EDIT: there's a sequence taken from the top of the smokebox just ahead of the stack, and you can pretty clearly hear exhausts coming from two sets of cylinders, audibly different. The N&W apparently approved and supervised these shots, by the way.

The producer says this is actual sound recorded with the video.

ANOTHR EDIT: This site <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://locodriver.co.uk/Vol05/Part09/02/index.html">http://locodriver.co.uk/Vol05/Part09/02/index.html</a><!-- m --> says "The N&W Mallets were provided with a simp[l]ing valve, enabling them to operate as four cylinder simple expansion locomotives. At starting, the exhaust from the high pressure (HP) cylinders was taken directly to the blastpipe, instead of to the low pressure (LP) cylinders as normal. This eliminated back pressure on the HP pistons at starting and meant an increase in tractive effort." Also, the Wikipedia entry on compounding says, "The eternal problem with compounds is starting: for all cylinders to take their weight, it is advisable to have some way of short-circuiting the HP cylinders and getting steam at a reduced pressure directly to the LP cylinder(s); hence many of the patented compound systems are associated with particular starting arrangements." I have a feeling that simpling valves were common on Mallets.

If you search Y6b on Youtube, you can come up with quite a lot of clips of these locos. One question is whether the sound is dubbed, so you can't necessarily trust them. On the other hand, at any apprecialble speed, the chuffs blend into a roar and the individual beats are harder to discern.
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#26
modelsof1900 Wrote:.....steam blowing out through stack....

I've never been too fond of the replication of steam sound, especially in HO, but the smoke/steam effect on those BLI locos is, to me at least, laughable - like a giant cigarette on wheels. Misngth Watching video clips of the real ones only reinforces that view.

Wayne
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#27
I very quickly turned off the smoke feature on my Triplex. However, steam locos have numerous sounds even when standing still, like the hiss of the blower, popping safety valves, air pumps, etc, which at least the Tsunami decoders do pretty well. My own view of sound, steam or diesel, is that it's fun in small doses, but there's always the mute button!
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#28
Jwb, an answer will follow.
And thanks to all for your comments and your opinions about sound decoders.
Cheers, Bernd

Please visit also my website www.us-modelsof1900.de.
You can read some more about my model projects and interests in my chronicle of facebook.
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#29
jwb Wrote:I very quickly turned off the smoke feature on my Triplex. However, steam locos have numerous sounds even when standing still, like the hiss of the blower, popping safety valves, air pumps, etc, which at least the Tsunami decoders do pretty well. My own view of sound, steam or diesel, is that it's fun in small doses, but there's always the mute button!

You're right about the other sounds being more prototypical, and I do appreciate that most folks with sound-equipped locos bought them because they enjoy the sounds. My opinions on it are influenced by having spent almost 40 years in a steel mill, where silence was non-existent. Nowadays, silence is slightly less rare, and I enjoy every minute of it. Goldth

Wayne
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#30
silence is slightly less rare, and I enjoy every minute of it. Goldth
I'm with Doc on that one.
 My other car is a locomotive, ARHS restoration crew  
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