Logging Railway Operation
#1
Hi!

I'm actually pondering about logging railway operation. I mean how locomotives were run. I've read quite a lot about the subject recently and viewed hundred of pictures. My question isn't about shays, climax, heisler or locomotives builts specifically for the task like 2-6-2, 2-8-2 and mallets. I'm talking about 4-4-0, 4-6-0 and 2-6-0 we often saw on very old pictures. On many line, these oldies survived quite a long time. My question is about running them in reverse.

I've seen a very few pictures showing them shoving log trains with the boiler facing the consist. You can explain that with the fact they wanted the crownsheet to be covered in water, which make sense when running against a steep grade.

However, many other pictures show you the locmotive pulling a loaded consist, face forward like a real mainline train. Clearly, that means there was a wye or another way to reverse the engine.

Here's my question, was it "common" that railroads devoid of any reversing device would run "standard" locos? Wouldn't it have been wuite risky to shove trains for miles up a hill then run back to the mill or the log pond the tender first? Sounds risky to me. I can understand they could build a runaround somewhere to make sure the locomotive pull the train uphill with empties. The, on the return trip, we would still have the tender running first.

I hope I'm clear in what I'm saying. I know a few railroad had locomotives facing the same direction all their life. I'm just trying to figure out what would have been normal for a logging operation using second-hand ex-mainline locomotives.

Thank you!

Matt
Proudly modelling Quebec Railway Light & Power Company since 1997.

Hedley-Junction Club Layout: http://www.hedley-junction.blogspot.com/

Erie 149th Street Harlem Station http://www.harlem-station.blogspot.com/
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#2
I'd guess that speeds weren't very high - walking speed, if that. The main reason for railways in the bush is that they could pull more than a team of horses, I think. I'd guess, too, that despite the wheel arrangements mentioned, most smallish operations would be using older (smallish) locomotives. Most logging lines were temporary - there might be a better-built trunk line back to the mill, but the lines into the cutting areas lasted only until the trees were gone. After that, the rails were lifted and taken to be used elsewhere.

Wayne
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#3
When I went to Cass last October, they explained that the locomotives were always kept on the down hill side of the train. This was for safety incase a coupler broke, or brakes failed on a car. The switchbacks at Cass had run-around tracks, where they can move the loco around the train and get it on the down hill side. They are gone now as they just pulled the train into the switchback.

As far as the loco's, my guess is that using regular mainline 4-4-0's and 2-4-0's was the exception and not the rule. In most cases, logging railroads used a light cheaper rail, than the standard rail, and mostly narrow gauge such as 3'. The pounding that a "side rod" locomotive gave the rail would wear out the rail quicker than the geared loco's, such as Shays and Hieslers would. Mostly mainline side rod loco's weren't designed for the tough grades that some logging railroads would encounter. Also, logging railroads wouldn't use ties that were supplied to the standard gauge railroads. Spiking a rail to a chunk of log was usually the norm, and it was cheaper to use part of a tree that was cut down, and readily available from the right of ways that were cut through forest. Plus the right of ways were rough, and barely maintained, which would of been hell on a standard mainline side rod. The geared loco's were specifically designed, for light rails, tough grades and badly maintained right of ways.

The pictures you saw might of been trains that were loaded up near standard gauge tracks, with the logs being brought to the mainline by horses or a drag line, and loaded up on a siding. Probably from a hillside that was even to rough for a geared loco.
Torrington, Ct.
NARA Member #87
I went to my Happy Place, but it was closed for renovations.
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#4
Here's my question, was it "common" that railroads devoid of any reversing device would run "standard" locos? Wouldn't it have been wuite risky to shove trains for miles up a hill then run back to the mill or the log pond the tender first? Sounds risky to me. I can understand they could build a runaround somewhere to make sure the locomotive pull the train uphill with empties. The, on the return trip, we would still have the tender running first.
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Absolutely..There was times when a steam locomotive had to be operated tender first such as mine branch lines,on interchange runs,urban locals that switch urban industrial leads,logging and mining railroads may not have had any means of turning there engines or running around there train.A Shay could tiptoe through a shallow creek since the rails was under water..No need to get fancy since once the timber was cleared the operation would move to another area and more temporary track would be laid.

Now shays could climb 7-10% grades and for safety and for loading the shay would push the log cars upgrade and would reverse back down grade with loaded cars with the engine lead for braking since most log cars only had handbrakes.

Logging locomotives could be 4-4-0s to small 2-6-6-2 (some of these was 2-6-6-2T) if there wasn't any extreme steep grades.
Larry
Engineman

Summerset Ry

Make Safety your first thought, Not your last!  Safety First!
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#5
Thanks for the input.

I knew about the concept of always running on the downhill side to keep cars from rolling down. Makes a lot of sense on a make shift railroad.

eightyeightfan1 Wrote:The pictures you saw might of been trains that were loaded up near standard gauge tracks, with the logs being brought to the mainline by horses or a drag line, and loaded up on a siding. Probably from a hillside that was even to rough for a geared loco.

They were from Oregon and B.C., in the woods and clearly identified as privately owned logging railroad. They weren't common carrier too. Some getting loaded with timber with pole crane and horse teams. But I'll be honest, I didn't saw a lot of them, most of the time, it's shay, climax and heisler.

Matt
Proudly modelling Quebec Railway Light & Power Company since 1997.

Hedley-Junction Club Layout: http://www.hedley-junction.blogspot.com/

Erie 149th Street Harlem Station http://www.harlem-station.blogspot.com/
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#6
"most of the time, it's shay, climax and heisler."

These locomotives were far better adapted ( OK actually built ) for operation on track that not only had sharp curves, but also, was rarely "level" side to side. The drivers on these locos could "follow the rails" far better than those of a rigid frame loco, and in some cases, even an articulated loco. I've heard several "arguments" stating that the Shays, Climaxes and Heislers, were easier to maintain, than rigid frame locos.
Sag Harbor Shipbuilding and Drydock Company, uses this 3' gauge outside frame 2-4-4-2, to move heavy loads in the tight confines of the shipyard. ( SHS&D had to build this one )    
Shinnecock Hills Lumber Company, purchased this standard gauge 2-6-6-2T to haul its logs, and "cut lumber". ( SHS&D does all the maintenance on this loco )
   

One of the real beauties of this hobby, is that you can establish the nature of the environment, then go and choose the equipment you feel is best suited to the tasks, or your own desires, while still keeping to the requirements of terrain, and finance. No, I do not believe there was ever, really, a 3' gauge outside frame 2-4-4-2. But, a shipyard has all the manufacturing capabilities needed, to build one for themselves.
Another of the beauties of this hobby, is all the learning curves that have to be traveled, to know if what I want to do is possible, probable, and/or profitable. The Creation of Sag Harbor Shipbuilding and Dry dock Company, with all its "potentials", was firstly, FUN, and secondly, provides the justification for these originals.
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