Thoughts re Hyper Loops?
#16
New World of Lemming Insanity.

<<<< Proceeds to spill [or is that spew?] the contents of his soft drink [from Atlanta Ga.] all over his keyboard after reading above comment.

Thanks Mountainman caught me off guard with that one.

Mark
Fake It till you Make It, then Fake It some More
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#17
MountainMan Wrote:Unfortunately for that claim, the faster you travel, the longer you have to wait to leave and arrive. You can travel by aircraft at 350 - 400 mph, but you must wait up to two hours to board and take off, wait to land and endure endless more waiting claiming your baggage and then somehow reaching you final destination, which is NOT the airport itself.

And then you arrive tired, angry, frustrated and out of sorts.

You only have to wait longer because of things like security checks. Thats an artificial speed bump.


Quote:As for finding things on Google, surely you are not attempting to equate an internet search with actual physical travel.

Well, I used fast gadgets to get that information. I hope you're not implying that imply because I can physically travel fast, that this has an impact on my intellectual capacity.

Quote:Speed and gadgets are responsible in large part for the gnat's brain mentality these days. Why bother to think about something if your mental objective can change literally every second of your day? And why else do the Marching Morons talk and text on their cellphones while hurtling along the roads at speeds up to 80 mph? Obviously, controlling a tow ton high speed mass of metal isn't enough to keep their attention focused for even a brief period of time. They need more, the constant electroshock therapy that constitutes "communication" and "social skills" in the New World of Lemming Insanity.

Remember - in ALL of its forms - speed kills.

I think its interesting that you place the blame on technology and not the individual's using it.

Why bother? because your "mental objective" doesn't change every second! Hey, they actually diagnosed me with ADD, and yet somehow I can focus long enough to do this hobby, AND scientific research and commute to work without endangering anyone AND do all the other things I need to do to survive these days.

But you know what the difference is? I actually 1.) care about the things I do, and 2.) I have a functioning brain. In my hands, this "speed" and these "gadgets" are tools. They allow me to accomplish more, and do more things with my time. They allow me to communicate with you nearly instantly, they allow me to reach my family in a short amount of time if there is an emergency. If I have to take a plane some place across the country, that "2 hour wait" is still less time than it would take a train or a car to make the same trip!

In the end, its not fair to blame the technology for the inconsiderate and thoughtless actions of others. Do you think that crazy person driving 80 while texting would be any safer without the phone? What makes you think they won't read the newspaper, do make-up, or god knows what else. I remember once I was on the Long Island Expressway, and there was a whole car of religious folks ( political correctness probably prevents me from saying who) reading from their books, including the driver, and they were driving like lunatics! Maybe they wanted to take the Expressway to god himself.


You can't blame technology for people's failings. They make their own ill-conceived choices and they pay the price for it.
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#18
Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:You only have to wait longer because of things like security checks. Thats an artificial speed bump.


Quote:As for finding things on Google, surely you are not attempting to equate an internet search with actual physical travel.

Well, I used fast gadgets to get that information. I hope you're not implying that imply because I can physically travel fast, that this has an impact on my intellectual capacity.



I think its interesting that you place the blame on technology and not the individual's using it.

Why bother? because your "mental objective" doesn't change every second! Hey, they actually diagnosed me with ADD, and yet somehow I can focus long enough to do this hobby, AND scientific research and commute to work without endangering anyone AND do all the other things I need to do to survive these days.

But you know what the difference is? I actually 1.) care about the things I do, and 2.) I have a functioning brain. In my hands, this "speed" and these "gadgets" are tools. They allow me to accomplish more, and do more things with my time. They allow me to communicate with you nearly instantly, they allow me to reach my family in a short amount of time if there is an emergency. If I have to take a plane some place across the country, that "2 hour wait" is still less time than it would take a train or a car to make the same trip!

In the end, its not fair to blame the technology for the inconsiderate and thoughtless actions of others. Do you think that crazy person driving 80 while texting would be any safer without the phone? What makes you think they won't read the newspaper, do make-up, or god knows what else. I remember once I was on the Long Island Expressway, and there was a whole car of religious folks ( political correctness probably prevents me from saying who) reading from their books, including the driver, and they were driving like lunatics! Maybe they wanted to take the Expressway to god himself.


You can't blame technology for people's failings. They make their own ill-conceived choices and they pay the price for it.

Wow...aren't you a fun little lollipop triple-dipped hostility! 8-)

Travel time is travel time, regardless of speed bumps. If you have any medical training, I would be very happy to debate the problems with epidemics that stem from our ability to globetrot irresponsibly all over the world in mere hours. It's a death sentence waiting to occur. Meanwhile, jet travel is no longer fast; it's often slower than ground transportation because of its massive vulnerabilities. I used to visit my parents in California, an 1100 mile trip. Although the aircraft traveled at 350 mph or better, the trip to 14 agonizing hours crammed into a chair designed by a midget with scoliosis, without the courtesy of food or drink. No, thank you.

While I agree that one should not blame people for techonolgy's drawbacks, the purpose of technology is to help, not to harm. The truth is that each new technology harms us more than it helps us. The particular technology that I have in mind is that of television, specifically MTV which began the lessening of the attention span to accommodate faster editing needed to keep the attention of the young long enough enough to irradiate their tiny little minds. Tell me how many of the older classical films, such as Citizen Kane, you can actually watch from beginning to end without moving from your seat. Icon_lol

However, cellphones led to texting, instead of taking the time to carry on a real time conversation, and that shortened informational exchange to 140 characters, apparently the entire mental capacity of a young person during a single message. The obvious conclusion is that Man is not adaptable to faster and faster technology, evidenced by the constant striving to place driverless vehicles on our highways and remove the responsibility of controlling a fast vehicle from our hands entirely, while passenger aircraft are now 90% controlled by an autopilot. It appears we can't handle just sitting very well, either.

As for any "implications' that you are mentally diminished, those were your words, not mine.

I have no desire and no use for hyperloop or maglev or any other travel at ultra-high speeds. Long go I learned that the pleasure of traveling to a destination is worth far more than the destination itself.
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#19
MountainMan Wrote:Wow...aren't you a fun little lollipop triple-dipped hostility! 8-)

Ok, I got a little hot there, but its not meant to be taken as hostility. Part of it is just frustration that most of your post implies that the younger generation aren't intellectually competent, and that just isn't true. Neither is technology to blame. The factors that determine a person's behavior and temperament are deeper than that.

More so though, I do to some extent enjoy debating these things, and I assume since you do respond, that you might also enjoy it. The more we discuss and flesh out these things, the more we learn. Just because I disagree does not mean I don't consider what you have to say.

Quote:Travel time is travel time, regardless of speed bumps. If you have any medical training, I would be very happy to debate the problems with epidemics that stem from our ability to globetrot irresponsibly all over the world in mere hours. It's a death sentence waiting to occur. Meanwhile, jet travel is no longer fast; it's often slower than ground transportation because of its massive vulnerabilities. I used to visit my parents in California, an 1100 mile trip. Although the aircraft traveled at 350 mph or better, the trip to 14 agonizing hours crammed into a chair designed by a midget with scoliosis, without the courtesy of food or drink. No, thank you.

Well I am a scientist in Biotech, so I think I'm fairly well suited to understand the risks of epidemics. I'm not sure though, if there is much you could do about these kinds of things, even if you cut off air travel.

As for the other aspects of flying, I suppose you have me there. I don't fly enough to say one way or another, but I'm still pretty sure it takes less time to fly across country than to take the train. Thats not to say I wouldn't LIKE to take the train, I just don't know if I want to spend 2 days getting there when I may have limited time away from work to travel in the first place. I don't think an Amtrak coach seat is going to be much more comfortable over a multiple day period, and so I might stick it out with the airplane. In either case, their isn't a lot of time to explore and enjoy the journey, because you're stuck in an airplane or an Amfleet car (or Superliner out west). An Amfleet is basically an airplane body on wheels anyway.

Quote:While I agree that one should not blame people for techonolgy's drawbacks, the purpose of technology is to help, not to harm. The truth is that each new technology harms us more than it helps us. The particular technology that I have in mind is that of television, specifically MTV which began the lessening of the attention span to accommodate faster editing needed to keep the attention of the young long enough enough to irradiate their tiny little minds. Tell me how many of the older classical films, such as Citizen Kane, you can actually watch from beginning to end without moving from your seat. Icon_lol

You have it backwards. Technology is not to blame for people's drawbacks.

MTV is dumb, but the kind of people who want to watch MTV are not the kind of people who are going to switch on the History Chanel and watch Modern Marvels. Rather, the kind of people who slavishly watch MTV are inherently lack the interest or drive to really watch or care anything else.

The low attention span was already there. MTV simply catered to and cashed in on it.

You got me on Citizen Kane, I haven't had the opportunity to watch it. I did sit through "High Noon" and the original "The Day the Earth Stood Still", the latter of which is probably one of my favorite movies, and personally I think it holds up pretty well (god knows that remake is awful and pointless). If either of those were on TV right now, I'd watch it, no kidding. Then again, maybe those aren't on your classics list.

Quote:However, cellphones led to texting, instead of taking the time to carry on a real time conversation, and that shortened informational exchange to 140 characters, apparently the entire mental capacity of a young person during a single message. The obvious conclusion is that Man is not adaptable to faster and faster technology, evidenced by the constant striving to place driverless vehicles on our highways and remove the responsibility of controlling a fast vehicle from our hands entirely, while passenger aircraft are now 90% controlled by an autopilot. It appears we can't handle just sitting very well, either.

Once again, "texting" isn't the bad thing here. Its how people use it. I don't know anyone who engages me in long drawn out "text" conversations at 140 characters a time. It just doesn't happen. The texts I make are almost always too the point, and don't require a whole phone call.

Why do I need to carry on a "real" conversation if I just need to tell someone I'm going to be late, or to ask my girlfriend where/when she wants to meet? If I want to talk to someone, then yes, I will call them. If I need more, specific information, I'll call them.

The sitting thing is probably true though. From the research I've read, they actually recommend people get up every half hour or so if they are just sitting there. I'm sure there is some truth to that.

I'm not sure I'm a fan of the self driving cars, but the autopilot in aircraft makes sense to me. LONG periods of focused behavior IS difficult, and that was true long before there were ever cell phones and texting.

Quote:As for any "implications' that you are mentally diminished, those were your words, not mine.

Eh, well, I can also manipulate your DNA, so I think I'm safe on the intellectual front.

Quote:I have no desire and no use for hyperloop or maglev or any other travel at ultra-high speeds. Long go I learned that the pleasure of traveling to a destination is worth far more than the destination itself.

That we can agree on. Even here in this thread, I only attempt to make the best possible argument for a hyperloop to show how ill-conceived the idea is. At its best, it barely competes, and yet a bunch of idealistic people with money are behind it, so it will probably happen whether or not it makes sense for it to.

Its a solution to a problem almost no one has.

It reminds me of this "Rolling Roads" concept from the 50s, where instead of cars, all the roads would be conveyor belts, and people would just ride pods around.
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#20
I started to read the article on this Hyper Loop and to be quite honest I am seeing nothing but problems.
Basically this guy is trying to build a vacuum tube system [like they used to have in department stores and office buildings], but make it for people.
This tube is nearly 12' in diameter and would need to be built to withstand the stresses of maintaining an atmospheric pressure of almost zero, that alone is going to require some serious structural steel fabrication, and he wants to do it over long distances using dedicated tubes for each city pairing.
This tube system will require an almost straight right of way, with super large radius curves in both the horizontal and vertical planes, so the Capital cost of purchasing the Right of Way will be huge, and we havent even considered the Environmental Impact, and NIMBY law suits and counter law suits.
The speed he talks about 1200 kph, will require speed up and slow down distances or you risk snapping the necks of your test tube passengers.
The energy requirements of this proposal will be huge, both in the invested energy cost from making all the high quality steel, the welding and fabrication, the reinforcement steel and the aggregates and cement used in the structural concrete, as well as the operating energy costs of achieving and maintaining a vacuum at almost zero, not just in a hyperbaric chamber, but in one stretching hundreds or thousands of miles.
Now as folks interested in railways we know that stretching steel over long distances causes problems with expansion and contraction and results in occasional break in twos and large gas and oil pipes have similar problems, so just how much of a problem do you think this elongated hyperbaric chamber will have in dealing with such issues? Remember that if you engineer in expansion and contraction sections you will have to maintain the vacuum.
The Capital and Operating Costs of this project are going to kill it before it even gets off the ground.
Oh and another thing, unlike a plane you wont be able to look out the window.
This proposal makes the idea of High Speed trains like the TGV and the Bullet Train seem cost effective and affordable by comparison.
It wont fly period.
Mark
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#21
Mr Fixit Wrote:I started to read the article on this Hyper Loop and to be quite honest I am seeing nothing but problems.
Basically this guy is trying to build a vacuum tube system [like they used to have in department stores and office buildings], but make it for people.
This tube is nearly 12' in diameter and would need to be built to withstand the stresses of maintaining an atmospheric pressure of almost zero, that alone is going to require some serious structural steel fabrication, and he wants to do it over long distances using dedicated tubes for each city pairing.
This tube system will require an almost straight right of way, with super large radius curves in both the horizontal and vertical planes, so the Capital cost of purchasing the Right of Way will be huge, and we havent even considered the Environmental Impact, and NIMBY law suits and counter law suits.
The speed he talks about 1200 kph, will require speed up and slow down distances or you risk snapping the necks of your test tube passengers.
The energy requirements of this proposal will be huge, both in the invested energy cost from making all the high quality steel, the welding and fabrication, the reinforcement steel and the aggregates and cement used in the structural concrete, as well as the operating energy costs of achieving and maintaining a vacuum at almost zero, not just in a hyperbaric chamber, but in one stretching hundreds or thousands of miles.
Now as folks interested in railways we know that stretching steel over long distances causes problems with expansion and contraction and results in occasional break in twos and large gas and oil pipes have similar problems, so just how much of a problem do you think this elongated hyperbaric chamber will have in dealing with such issues? Remember that if you engineer in expansion and contraction sections you will have to maintain the vacuum.
The Capital and Operating Costs of this project are going to kill it before it even gets off the ground.
Oh and another thing, unlike a plane you wont be able to look out the window.
This proposal makes the idea of High Speed trains like the TGV and the Bullet Train seem cost effective and affordable by comparison.
It wont fly period.
Mark

Interesting thoughts, Mark -- they make a lot of sense.
Rob
Rob
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#22
Thanks Rob.
As many of the commentators on the article have said it reeks of "Simpson's Monorail Episode".
On the subject of monorails we have all seen just how cumbersome a set of "points" or track switches for a monorail can look, well they will positively look streamlined and easy to build compared to any Hyper Loop tube switching machines, not to mention any multiple loading or unloading stations.
I also realized that directional running will be absolutely necessary and require a second separate tube for return traffic.
I dont like to shoot forward thinkers down, but this concept is just so unworkable that I actually checked to see if it was possibly an April Fool's Day joke.
Sadly it wasnt which makes me think it is either pie in the sky or someone is searching out gullible money.
Mark
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#23
I'm afraid that a better name would be Hype Loop. I guess I'm one of those Luddites, but I won't get my feelings hurt if you call me that, Haha! The article says it probably wouldn't be built in the US, which is OK since we can't even manage Amtrak without all its various disasters and inconvenience, IMO. No, Hyper Loop just reminds me so much of Elio Motors... Nope
Cid
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#24
Well, I was working my way through the News.com.au website tonight and it would appear that the Hyperloop or Hyped Up Loop is still alive and well and sucking money from financial backers in all sorts of industries.
Those of you who read my previous posting on the subject will know that I have foreseen a lot of basic engineering problems with this concept and I seriously cannot help but think of the Simpsons Monorail Episode.
There seems to be an awful lot of pie in the sky thinking associated with this project and the method used to move the capsules. They are going to be "levitated" magnetically and the power used will be recouped by harvesting the regenerative braking effect as the capsule is slowed down.
Hmmmm, what about the power requirements needed to create a "low pressure tube", and to operate the pressure doors at any stations?
What about the health effects of placing people in a high power magnetic field for 20 to 30 minutes of travel time? It may not be am MRI machine but it is still a high powered magnetic field.
In most forms of human transport we as passengers are able to see out or at least see the walls of the tunnel passing by, the exceptions being most lifts, aircraft at night, submarines and maybe one or two others. This means that passenger engagement or entertainment will be even more important than it is at present.
Does it concern any of you that we have enough trouble making things go both fast and reliably without incurring too many casualties when systems fail?
Case in point, the fairly recent fatal TGV test train accident, other high speed train crashes, ordinary train and plane crashes and car crashes.
Assurances have been made that should there be a problem, the high speed capsule will "coast to a stop". Yeah, and if not what happens then? A capsule stopped somewhere after skidding to a halt, with the friction generated literally cooking the people inside as they are squashed against the front bulkhead and their brains turned to mush from the "G" forces experienced during deceleration.
Just how and where are the people inside the capsule to be rescued from a stopped capsule somewhere inside a very long magnetic tube with a very low air pressure environment?

If we cant make monorails, levitation systems and the like work properly at low speeds, just what do you reckon the chances are to safely send people through a highly magnetic Hyperloop system?

Mark

Here is the title of the article; Hyperloop announce fresh funding on the eve of first public demonstration
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