ARHS / Big Dog dispute

[e-paw]

I am reposting a letter from the board of directors of the Anthracite Railroads Historical society about a dispute that we are having with a supplier called Big Dog Originals. I have received permission from Ed White to post this here to inform others of what is going on .


March 30, 2017



Dear ARHS Members and Friends,



Back in 2007-2008, as a fundraiser for the society, ARHS invested substantial time and resources in the development of an HO-Scale Baldwin DR-4-4-1500 “Babyface” model shell that could fit on a Life-Like Proto 2000 FA2 chassis. This involved researching the Babyface designs at the PA state archives in Harrisburg, PA, working with CAD designers to appropriately scale the shells, working with resin mold casters to alter the shells to “lock” on to a FA2 chassis, and procuring the necessary detail parts to accompany the shells (windshields, steps, horns, etc.) All of this time was invested by the Society to further our mission of historical preservation and to support the Society financially through sales of this model.



In January 2017, the ARHS was contacted by Mr. Bruce Gavin of Big Dawg Originals (BDO) (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://www.bigdawgoriginals.com/">https://www.bigdawgoriginals.com/</a><!-- m -->). Mr. Gavin informed the ARHS he was selling copies of the shells which he had made from a mold he had taken of one of our shells. To justify this piracy of our design, he alleged correctly that the design of the original locomotive was in the public domain, but incorrectly that the design of our HO scale model was also in the public domain. It is not. Mr. Gavin is presently promoting his pirated copies on BDO’s website (link above), via eBay here and here, and via Facebook here. Apparently sales have been substantial enough to justify a second run per BDO’s Facebook and web pages.



The ARHS takes the position that Mr. Gavin's actions constitute theft of our design. Apparently this is not the first time that Mr.Gavin has attempted to pirate someone else's work. Our claims of theft are echoed by reputable manufacturers (Athearn, Rapido, etc.), and have been posted or quoted in reputable online forums (i.e. Model Railroader here)



So where does that leave us? The ARHS has contacted Bruce Gavin of BDO directly stating our position and requesting he and his company cease from these illegal activities.



We are also asking for your help and cooperation by not patronizing this illegal activity, and spreading the word to other modelers of BDO's questionable reputation. Companies like BDO only have a market for their product if there are customers out there who support them. Margins in the model railroading industry have shrunk so much in recent years that the only manufacturers left are those that would not be in it except that they enjoy the hobby as much as the modeler does. As if the financial pressure on the industry from overseas manufacturing wasn’t enough, now we have issues from companies like BDO on the home front to deal with. Specific to the ARHS, it was our hope that the investment we had in the Babyface models years ago could be used to benefit the Society down the road with additional HO models, including double-enders, and possibly runs of the Babyface shells in additional scales. The actions of BDO have put these future opportunities at risk for the ARHS.



The ARHS board of directors requests your support in not patronizing companies such as BDO and encouraging your friends and family to do the same. There is nothing original about BDO. Their work is theft of another’s investment, design, and hard-earned ideas, plain and simple.



Warmest Regards,

The ARHS Board of Directors



Although I have no control over how people spend their money , I would like to ask the members here to not purchase our copied shells from Big Dog Originals. We are a nonprofit group that has spent a huge amount of funds and time on this project, for someone to copy them for profit is a real slap in the face.

Thanks for your time in reading this.
Steve Olear.

[e-paw]

As a fallow up I will repost another letter from the ARHS board.



Evan, Steve, and others:




Thank you for your continued support of the ARHS. As you may be well aware, we are a community-based 501c3 nonprofit organization. Our society is all-volunteer run with much financial support from members and friends. Those of us who volunteer for the society do it in our own time as we have families, jobs, etc that take precedence. We had a large up-front financial and "time invested" cost with the initial run of the babyfaces ~10y ago, planning on recouping these costs with additional runs in the future. It would be nice to see additional related projects for the babyfaces come forward for the ARHS.




That being said, this is a subscription-based group with volunteer moderator whose function is to primarily keep posts on topic and minimize non-productive back-and forth written confrontation among posters to the group. As far as I know, there are no confidentiality limitations to members of the group. Assuming I am correct here, you are free to repost at will, without modifications to the original post.




Best regards,




Ed White

ARHS Treasurer

On behalf of the ARHS Board of Directors

[MountainMan]

This is what lawyers were invented for.

[Tyson Rayles]

Sorry to hear about this. Rest assured I would NEVER buy from somebody like this.

[MountainMan]

Many modelers copy parts from commercial kits and stockpile them for other projects, kitbashing, scratchbuilding, etc. This is, in fact, as great a crime as any other since it is illegal copying of a commercial product. The only reason this is being publicized is because the copies are being sold for profit.

It's a lot like making personal copies of music for your ipod as opposed to copying and selling the music without permission. Both are, in fact, illegal under copywrite law.

[ngauger]

e-paw, thanks for posting this information.

As Don & I have always maintained, we don't allow posting of photos, files, etc. not owned by the poster. This goes far and above (below) that! Having help run a 501©3 company and volunteering for our railroad museum (also non-Profit) this really hits home. This is just rotten!!

[e-paw]

Thanks for all your support. This all came at a bad time as we are planning a second run of these units ourselves.
I did want to pick up an A-B-A set for my self but, found the cost of the first run to be a bit out of reach for me. Here is another repost that shows our cost and puts it into perspective with the price that was asked for.




[i]Ed (and list),

The major cost for the Babyfaces was the design work for the 3D drawings for both shells. They are not exactly like the prototypes, since some parts of the originals didn't "scale" well.

The Society made about $3 k on the first run, not counting the volunteer hours involved.

If you count those hours at $20 per, we either would've lost $25 K or would've had to triple the price of the shells. :-)

Costs for a second run will be much lower. Some changes to the dwgs would be necessary, mostly on the grille locations.

I'm assuming the manufacturing costs would be similar to 2010, but that's just a guess.

What the project needs is a champion to survey the market, work the numbers, create a proposal for the Board and then follow the project through to completion.


Walter Hoffmann
President Emeritus {x2}
(Is that a title?) [i/]





So maybe there is hope for a set.

[Green_Elite_Cab]

This is disappointing, I have a few of their shells but I did not know about their questionable actions before I picked them up. Apparently, many of their parts such as their cabs are actually resin casts of someone else's 3D printed parts.

One wonders how much of their stuff is really original? It kinda sucks because they do seem to have a lot of odd-ball diesels in there that I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess aren't available in any other format. Even though its a newer engine, I had been considering their C39-8.

I hadn't realized they had run afoul of Athearn or Rapido, but then I guess its possible some of his "originals" are made from kitbashes of other manufacturer's models. Its pretty clear that the RS3M he sold has P2K radiator fans, and that a good chunk of the shell is probably an Atlas RS3. The only thing that would seal the deal would be if it turned out the altered exhaust part were the the old Tiger Valley kits! I now worry that the Hammer Head RS3 may have been one of Yellow Lynn's scratchbuilt noses. My understanding is that he passed away sometime ago, and so I'm sure no one is looking over what happens with his parts.

On the other hand, and this may sound a tad hypocritical, I feel like many of the resin shells I've picked up from various sources have a little bit of other manufacturers in them. On the GP40FH-2 shells I have from another manufactuerer, the body may be mostly scratchbuilt, but then the cab and nose look a lot like an Athearn blue box, and parts of the long hood looke like they may have come from a Bachmann F40PH. I'm sure if a manufacturer really wanted to pursue some of these Resin casters, they could, but whats the point? Athearn won't be making a GP40FH-2 anytime soon, and the use of their cab probably had more to do with making the body shell compatible with their easily acquired frames (essentially meaning you'd have to buy an Athearn model anyway).

I suppose where is the line drawn?

Big Dawg is definitely in the wrong here, and it looks like they either took the CNJ shells down or have for now, sold out of them. I'm surprised the ARHS doesn't sue him for the lost income. Its too bad. If his casts were any good, maybe he could have worked out a deal where he sold the shells and a portion came back to the ARHS, because its clear they sold well.

[MountainMan]

As Don & I have always maintained, we don't allow posting of photos, files, etc. not owned by the poster. This goes far and above (below) that! Having help run a 501©3 company and volunteering for our railroad museum (also non-Profit) this really hits home. This is just rotten!!

A lot of stuff is posted here that does not belong to the owner. Anything in the public domain is fair game.

[cnrglen]

I just checked the website and mostly I got error messages stating 'file not found'.
I also couldn't find anything for sale on ebay either.

[Canadian Atlantic Railway]

He is now under "Pacific Northwest Kit Bashing Group" on fb and I saw somewhere that CMR??? was going to be distributing the shells for him.

[e-paw]

Thanks Peir for the heads up. I passed on the info to the big heads at the ARHS. We, as ore others are keeping pressure on him no matter where he goes.

[Canadian Atlantic Railway]

I tried to find the post on fb but I don't remember what group it is on. If I find it I'll post t here.

[e-paw]

This was just sent to me from MR's forum to be reposted.



Not a light-hearted post, this one!

From Rapido Trains Inc.
Gentlemen,

These guys - Big Dawg - have stolen our intellectual property by modifying our F40PH-2D shell and recasting it and selling it. We've made inquiries and the legal cost of going after Big Dawg is probably ten times their annual sales, so we're going to ignore them for now.

However, if you buy these illegal goods, STOP CALLING US FOR HELP.

We will not give you paint formulas. We will not sell you chassis. We will not send you detail parts. We will not help you complete your Big Dawg model that was ripped off from the Rapido model. You know, the Rapido model that took us years of hard work to develop and cost us hundreds of thousands of dollars.

If you decide to buy the Big Dawg shell rather than wait for the Rapido rebuilt F40PH-2D currently in development, then you are ON YOUR OWN. We will NOT HELP YOU.

Please feel free to pass this message on.

-Jason

__._,_.___


Rapido puts a lot of work into their high-quality locomotives, and I feel strongly about this. It's my understanding that the guy behind Big Dawg does the same with other manufacturers. Personally, I will not be buying any of Big Dawg's products. I suggest you do the same.

[danielb]

I bought one big dawg shell a few years ago, before I knew what kind of a person he was.

I'll not be buying anything else from them, like... ever. Obviously.

I do like the babyface, I'll see if one is worth a look for my own railroad. I doubt they got so far south as to appear on a Kentucky set layout, however... I do have a shortline railroad on there....