Man o'man... my layout is a headache. It's really depressing and has caused me to avoid my train room for about two weeks now. I tried again last night and got so frustrated I had to pull the plug before I started throwing locos and rolling stock everywhere.
I've finsihed my main line, and I've tried running trains, but nothing can make it the full circuit without derailing... I know for sure that I gotta replace the Atlas turnouts with Pecos, the Peco turnouts I do have seem to be pretty much flawless....
but the rest of the layout is giving me strong issues. My locos (daylight and challenger) keeps skipping the rails and giving me shorts/SVDA errors on my MRC Express, my Consolidation can't make it anywhere without stalling out...yet works fine on my test oval of bachman eztrack.
It's quite upsetting....
I'm so close to tearing it all up again it's not even funny... I need some tips on how to lay track thats reliable. I solder feeders every foot or so, and in the yard every leg section has it's own set of feeders. I've cleaned all the tracks with a bright boy and then atlas track cleaner with a nice soft cloth. I've even went around it with my Aztec track cleaner a few times and I'm still getting tons of stalls on straight and level track with my smaller locos. (the challenger stalls quite often too, but the Daylight is awesome)
I've even done a good cleaning on the loco wheels, and they sparkle as if they are new... so I know theres electircal contact there.
I'm using Atlas code 80 and Woodland scenic road bed for my track work. I use white glue to keep it all down, and I usually weight the track into the glue using cans of food and let them sit for a minimum of 10 hours before I remove the cans.
My wire for my bus is slightly thicker than the stuff Atlas sells, and the feeders are all atlas feeder wires.
I don't solder my joints unless it's flex...because my last layout had lots of issues when I soldered every joint....
Even my diesels are giving me issues... My intermountains stall more than any of my other locos...and my Atlas GP9 can't make it through the yard smoothly either.
My top performers are my Kato Daylight, Bachmann Heavy Mountain, and Bachmann J-class. Those three do not stall out and hold the rails the best...but still skip every once in a while....
minimum radius is 11... so I'm thinking I'm going to redo @ 13 minimum if I tear it all up (which I most likley will....aside from the terminal where I'll just replace the atlas turnouts with peco)
From what I gather, you have both problems.....derailing and stalling....Let's take 'em one at a time...
Derailing is probably caused by kinks in your track, and may also have dips and rises. From what you say, you're using the ballast/glue mixture to hold your track in place. White glue will not stick to your plastic ties, it just kinda' molds around them so track may have a bit of movement. Also fluctuations in temperature and humidity levels in the train room may have "softened" the glue somewhat allowing the track to move. Probably the best remedy, short of tearing it up and laying it back down with a proper glue, would be to nail it down, making sure beforehand that the track has no kinks and/or dips. What may seem insignificant to your eyes, might be a major problem for tiny N-gauge wheels...Also, drive the nails very carefully 'till they just touch the ties, or you might put a kink/dip where you drove the nail.
As for your pick-up problem, it might be related to the kind of track you use....brass or nickel silver, although kinks and dips will also affect pick up. If brass, it is a pain in the hinder, oxidizing and not allowing proper current flow. Nickel silver is more forgiving in this respect, although both will suffer if you operate in a particularly dusty environment. If you smoke...cigarette soot (and tar) will also wind up on the railheads.
Tackle the alignment problem first, it will help in reducing the pick-up problem, and make your job a lot easier to correct.
I went through the same problems you describe with my last layout...I learned that nearly "perfect" track work is the basis of any layout....If it doesn't run properly, the rest doesn't matter....
Good luck, and let us know how you make out...
Have you checked to be sure the rail and the okies are in guage? How many feeders are you using , you should have one every 3 feet at least. where ever you find it stalling out run a wire to each side of the ouside rails to see if that spot improves, do the same if its stalling on the switches.
Gus's solutions are good. Track alignment is critical
But you forgot to mention if it happens sporadically, or always at the same spot.
If its the same spot every time, check that spot. I could be so much as a joiner that slipped underneath the rail, instead sliding into it, especially with flex track. That would also cause derailments, and spotty electrical connections.(I've done it a million times). You might not see it, and sometimes feel it when cleaning track.
thanks for the help so far guys.
The stalling is pretty sporadic. The same loco will keep stall out in one location one time around. Then the next time around it will die in a spot a few inches down...
Feeders are placed every few feet on the main line, and there are two pairs of feeders off every turnout. The Atlas turnouts are where most of my yard derailments happen, and I still get stalls, but not as many as you might think. Many of my locos (steamers mostly) will have one set of wheels head down the right route, while others will deviate and go through the turnout in the other direction... rolling stock does this too. 9x10 it's the Atlas turnouts that do this... so I am assuming that the issue here is the cruddy turnout mechanisms.
I checked my track, and there is no joiner that is not setup properly....
But your right about the white glue, it has just seeped into the spaces between the ties and that seems to be whats holding the track down. So if I do tear it up, what should I use to keep the track down. I've done track nails before and had even less luck.
Clear caulk maybe?
I assume cork has less "give" than the woodlands scenic stuff, and may not deform as easily under the weight of a can o' chunky soup... and that probably caused some dips in the rails???
I've never used the WS roadbed so can't tell how it behaves. Cork is pretty stiff and will support just about anything you put on top of it....But there's no need for that. I use clear latex caulk for gluing the track down. Just lay a bead down the center line, and spread it out to track width with a spatula. don't use too much...it will just ooze up between the ties and make ballasting more of a pain than it needs to be. Make sure you "eyeball" track alignment before the latex starts setting up (it doesn't take but a few minutes). I use bulletin board pins to hold the track in place (placed between the ties) while the latex sets up, generally I'll leave it overnight. Next day you'll have some pretty well glued track which should work great..!!
If you're having problems mostly at the A's turnouts, you know what the fix is there....I've used only Pecos on my latest layout, and have had absolutely NO PROBLEMS with them....
I can relate!
I have a 4x6 layout and I have just recently (so it seems!) resolved several track/derailment problems and it's now operating very well. My layout is HO and I used code 100 track, a mixture of Peco and Atlas.
IMHO, The main things to watch our for are:
-- keep the track as flat and level as possible, especially turnouts. This point can't be emphasized enough as it was the cause of most of my layout's problems
-- watch for any slight changes in elevation of your track, again keep the track as flat as possible
-- also watch the shape of your curves, especially if you are using flextrack
-- I also had MAJOR problems with Atlas switches. While some forum members say Atlas points can be easily tweaked, I had lots of problems with them. Peco are definitely the best and Hornby (a British MRR company) makes good ones too. The Hornby ones are very similar to Peco's but cost a lot less.
I solved most of my layout's problems by following the above and just patiently trying various corrections "trial and error". Even a slight change of moving track by 1 or 2 mm is a major change.
This is just a quick response and I could ramble on a bit more, as I've had so many similar issues with my layout.
All the best -- keep us posted!
Rob
Been there...felt that pain. Track problems are more than an annoyance.
I'd check (based on similar experiences) the following:
1. Every rail joiner for proper contact to the rails.
2. Any metal spurs that might derail a wheel should be filed away.
3. Get a level and see how "level" the rails are. Could the cans have made dips or swells that affect the longer engines?
4. Are you sure every track is really getting power?
5. Is there the remotest possibility of a polarity issue?
6. Have you already weathered the rails and is there paint between the rail and rail joiner (this is the one that got me)?
7. All electrical wires are firmly tied together from the power pack to the powered rail joiners?
8. The inside of the rails (not just the rail tops) are clean enough to allow proper contact?
9. All engine wheels to gauge?
10. All tracks to gauge? No kinks, no widening between the rails?
In my limited experience on my layout, every track problem I've had where a diesel suddenly looses power has been from a bad rail joiner and painted track. Almost all of my rail joiners open up an loosen over time. I would suggest pinning down the track into the layout board (foam or whatever you used) to hold it in place until you glue it down permanently. I've used Liquid Nails For Projects to hold my track down...and it worked really well. Maybe it's a bit too strong, but it's easy to work with, no mess, and it really holds stuff in place.
Oh...btw...I switched to Peco turnouts and think they're great. Some of the passenger cars and autoracks seem to derail over them from time to time because of the wheel flange I think. But overall, I really like the Peco's.
Hope these ideas help...plus all the other great ideas the other guys have offered up.
Herc Driver Wrote:Been there...felt that pain. Track problems are more than an annoyance.
I'd check (based on similar experiences) the following:
1. Every rail joiner for proper contact to the rails.
Checked all the joiners, they all seem to be alligned properly.
Quote:2. Any metal spurs that might derail a wheel should be filed away.
hummm...I should check this. I don't think there are, but I'll do some tests on that... finger test and box-car test.
Quote:3. Get a level and see how "level" the rails are. Could the cans have made dips or swells that affect the longer engines?
A good idea I should have checked earlier... I'll be doing this ASAP.
Quote:4. Are you sure every track is really getting power?
Yes, I was pretty anal about this. I even went through the layout with my multimeter and found that every track had connectivity with each other, and each one was showing power.
Quote:5. Is there the remotest possibility of a polarity issue?
Not to my knowledge (unless my a loco jumps the rails in the yard)
Quote:6. Have you already weathered the rails and is there paint between the rail and rail joiner (this is the one that got me)?
Nope. No weathering, and the turf was laid and vacummed before I started to lay track.
Quote:7. All electrical wires are firmly tied together from the power pack to the powered rail joiners?
soldered
Quote:8. The inside of the rails (not just the rail tops) are clean enough to allow proper contact?
good call! I got a feeling some of the white glue might have gotten on the sides. not to mention any oxidation due to soldering?
Quote:9. All engine wheels to gauge?
I'll check that out... NMRA gauge?
Quote:10. All tracks to gauge? No kinks, no widening between the rails?
NMRA gauge again?
Quote:In my limited experience on my layout, every track problem I've had where a diesel suddenly looses power has been from a bad rail joiner and painted track. Almost all of my rail joiners open up an loosen over time. I would suggest pinning down the track into the layout board (foam or whatever you used) to hold it in place until you glue it down permanently. I've used Liquid Nails For Projects to hold my track down...and it worked really well. Maybe it's a bit too strong, but it's easy to work with, no mess, and it really holds stuff in place.
Oh...btw...I switched to Peco turnouts and think they're great. Some of the passenger cars and autoracks seem to derail over them from time to time because of the wheel flange I think. But overall, I really like the Peco's.
Hope these ideas help...plus all the other great ideas the other guys have offered up.
There has been some great suggestions here that I will look at before I tear it up again. I'm not sure I'm happy with it anyways because all I got is this long main line with no fun anywhere else... kinda depressing.
But I have a feeling I got dips in the rails from the cans, and that my white glue is causing connectivity issues.
guess I know what I'm doing next winter! lol (I'm going to Flordia in June so I gotta save m'pennies right now...seeing as how the canadian dollar sucks!)
Like you, I used cans (of paint) to hold the track in place as it dried. I placed small cans on a piece of wood, approximately 1/2 inch thick so the weight of the can would be as evenly distributed as possible. A quick and easy way to see if the track is level is to grab a foot long ruler and slide it along the rails. Any gaps between the ruler and the rail might be part of the problem. And yep...get a NMRA gauge. It's proven itself to me over and over - showing problems with wheels, tracks, and turnouts.
One thing I don't see mentioned is wheels. If the wheels are not clean the locomotives will stall randomly.
Charlie
Charlie B Wrote:Onew thing I don't see mentioned is wheels. If the wheels are not clean the locomotives will stall randomly.
Charlie
Wiredup Wrote:I've even done a good cleaning on the loco wheels, and they sparkle as if they are new... so I know theres electircal contact there.
cleaned'em
but I will go over them again just to make sure.
There are deffinate dips in the rails... a lot of uneven parts, and there are the odd places where the track starts squeezing and which is whats popping the steamers outa the rails...but dosn't derail the rolling stock surprisngly.
I think its time for me to do a full yank of whats built and start again.....
I'll probably keep most of the terminal, because it's for the most part very functional, but I think I need a slightly larger yard...
I'll also relook at my benchwork, because I think I built the majority of it too low....
Take a deep breath and give yourself a pat on the back for figuring out the problem areas, developing a plan on how to fix it, and having the desire to build it again. It's a pain to do the rework, but I'd bet you'll be happier with the changes you make to your future design. Seems like every time I rework a place, I like the end result better than what was replaced.
Herc Driver Wrote:Take a deep breath and give yourself a pat on the back for figuring out the problem areas, developing a plan on how to fix it, and having the desire to build it again. It's a pain to do the rework, but I'd bet you'll be happier with the changes you make to your future design. Seems like every time I rework a place, I like the end result better than what was replaced.
Well thats the thing... I realy don't know how much I wanna redo...
The benchwork is all in place... and I got what feels like a lot of room....
My terminal takes up 2.5ft by 9.8ft. It has a roundhouse, coaling tower, water tower, sanding tower, place for diesel refuling, and will get a small mtc shed. There is a passenger terminal, and rom for a freight house. But thats about it... hey thats all I need, but it's a big location.
Then I got a 2ft by 9.8ft section, and then two smaller 2ft by 2ft sections joining them up so it's a big square...
But I can't figure out anything I like for the other sections that works..... I like elevation changes, because I'm basing this on mountain and water areas (think interior BC in the valley) and I got structures for a small town and a lumber works... but no where to put them on my current layout.
The big problem is that I throught that I could get some crazy transitions and great looking scenery if I built the other three sections of my benchwork lower than the main section... the result is an 8 inch elevation change between the benchwork on the terminal and the rest of the layout....which is freakin huge!