My sons and I often go rail-fanning and wave to the train crews, etc. I just thought I should find out a little more about present-day train crews as well as those in the past -- as I realize that I'm a little confused about some modern-day train crew roles.
Today, there are usually two people staffing freight train engines. One is the driver on the right-hand side of the engine ... and, since we no longer need a fireman, is the other person a conductor who is in charge of the train and its overall operation?
In the 1960s-80s, during diesel power operation, would the conductor have ridden in the caboose with other train crew? And would the other guy riding with the engineer still be called a fireman or an assistant?
Going back to steam days, the engine would obviously be staffed by an engineer and fireman, and I expect the conductor and other crew would have occupied the caboose.
Thanks for any feedback or clarifying! I'm especially interested in modern-day train crew roles.
Rob
When I worked for CSXT we had 2 person crews on road freights, an engineer and a conductor. There was talk about cross training us all into APEs... All Purpose Employees. This way no seperate engineer/conductor lists had to be maintained, each employee could do both. From what I understand that has begun to an extent since I left the RR.
For local freights and yard jobs the job may have one or more brakemen assigned as well, depending on the amount of work to be done. While the conductor was in charge of the train and associated paperwork, the brakemen would help to do the ground work, I.E. throw switches, couple/uncouple cars, make spots/set outs, etc. under supervision of the conductor. Brakemen were called from the conductor list, and were not necessarily junior to the conductor in charge of the train.
In the old days positions on the head end crew consisted of Engineer, Fireman, Head End Brakeman/Flagman; rear end crew would have been Conductor and Rear End Brakeman/Flagman. The position of fireman actually lasted well into the diesel era, perhaps into the 80's?
I'm sure Brakie will have more information on this subject.
Dave
Puddlejumper Wrote:When I worked for CSXT we had 2 person crews on road freights, an engineer and a conductor. There was talk about cross training us all into APEs... All Purpose Employees. This way no seperate engineer/conductor lists had to be maintained, each employee could do both. From what I understand that has begun to an extent since I left the RR.
For local freights and yard jobs the job may have one or more brakemen assigned as well, depending on the amount of work to be done. While the conductor was in charge of the train and associated paperwork, the brakemen would help to do the ground work, I.E. throw switches, couple/uncouple cars, make spots/set outs, etc. under supervision of the conductor. Brakemen were called from the conductor list, and were not necessarily junior to the conductor in charge of the train.
In the old days positions on the head end crew consisted of Engineer, Fireman, Head End Brakeman/Flagman; rear end crew would have been Conductor and Rear End Brakeman/Flagman. The position of fireman actually lasted well into the diesel era, perhaps into the 80's?
I'm sure Brakie will have more information on this subject.
Dave
Thanks, Dave. This is helpful. Why do we not need so many brakemen positions today -- is it because the cars & switches are controlled via computer?
Cheers,
Rob
The simple explanation is that a century ago railroading was much more labor-intensive and required more manpower to get the trains over the road. Throughout the twentieth century technology made many of the jobs obsolete but because of government bureaucracy and union-led featherbedding crew sizes did not match the usual workload for decades.
Crew size was set through the 1970s by union contracts and government regulation. Some states, Indiana comes to mind first, required a third brakeman on trains over a certain length. Throughout the 1980s crew size was decreased to be in line with the requirements for the job.
Remember that a century ago railroading was a much more labor-intensive vocation. There was more paperwork for timetable and train order operation and spotting defects on a train was done manually. Today dispatchers control most signals and switches, train defects are spotted by trackside boxes, and paperwork isn't exchanged on the fly.
While the debate over crew size rages on, it's plain to see that keeping five member crews into the twenty-first century was overkill. If everything goes right then two man crews work fine, but rarely does a crew make a run where everything goes right.
The Telemetry devices used on the rear of trains nowadays monitor air pressure and give the ability for the engineer to place the train in emergency from the rear if necessary. They also provide a red light or reflective marker to the rear of the train. Roller bearings have eliminated the need to constantly monitor journals for hot boxes. And Centralized traffic control has all but eliminated the need for rear end flag protection. These things are what allowed the caboose to be eliminated from trains. Hence no brakeman on the rear. With the conductor moved up front he could do the job of a head end brakeman. So there go your 2 brakeman spots on road freights. And the fireman was eliminated as well. Leaving 2 people.
Yard jobs and locals still need brakeman because there is a lot of foot work to do, making spots, kicking cars, etc. Of course, there are times when a crew of 2 does this with no brakeman. Oh, and in today's railroad climate, there are crews of... ONE... that's right, I forgot to mention the remote controlled operations. One engineer/conductor on the ground, doing all the leg work alone, with a large remote control box strapped to his waist held up with suspenders. He controls all movement of the locomotive AND does all the ground work AND does all the paperwork.
Glad I am not still on the job.
Dave
Rob,First in the old days the crew had 6 men..A engineer,a fireman,head brakeman,rear brakeman,flagman and conductor...Then the flagman was eliminated with the coming of the CTC(Centralized Traffic Control) operated by a dispatcher..The fireman's position lasted into the 70s on some roads.With the coming of the FRED(End Of Train Device) the caboose was eliminated from main line trains* as well as the position of head and rear brakeman.Today some locals and yard crews use 3 man crews--however,a man on the ground can operate the locomotive eliminating the yard engineer job..Some short lines uses 3 men crews.
The reason the crews was cut was to eliminate jobs and the costs of maintaining cabooses as well as elimintion of more jobs such as the cabosse service track crew and the yard crew that added caboose to outbound trains or remove cabooses from inbound trains..
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* Cabooses is still used on some trains that makes long reverse moves such as locals,mine runs and transfer runs.
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BTW..The only time the cars & switches are controlled by computer is when the cars are being hump..Even at that a "pin puller" uncouples the cars as they crest the hump.
Flat switching still requires the yard crew to manually throw the switches.
Puddlejumper Wrote:Of course, there are times when a crew of 2 does this with no brakeman. Oh, and in today's railroad climate, there are crews of... ONE... that's right, I forgot to mention the remote controlled operations. One engineer/conductor on the ground, doing all the leg work alone, with a large remote control box strapped to his waist held up with suspenders. He controls all movement of the locomotive AND does all the ground work AND does all the paperwork.
Dave
After reading Brakie's post I thought about it and I think this is wrong. I think remote control operations still use 2 men, but both on the ground. I don't think there are any one person crews out there... yet.
Dave
You better believe there are one man crews in use in yards on remote jobs. Been going on for years now. There's a push by the railroads for almost a decade to put them on road trains that don't work en route as well.
One of the switching yards in Denver operates with a one-man crew and a remotely controlled locomotive. It made quite a stir in the papers when people found out.
And it won't be too long before the trains will be operated by the dispatchers strictly by remote control, no crews at all. My now retired FRA man was telling me it wasn't far away. There was a mine railroad in Ohio in the 70's that did this, so it isn't impossible. I just wonder how many amps the DCC booster pack will require.
Charlie
The latest estimate is...about a gagillion....
I don't think that trains will be totally crew less. It'd be hard for a dispatcher to make an emergency stop from a thousand miles away(As if its easier with someone in the cab). I don't think the government will allow a total autonomous of trains, and public out cry would prevent it from happening. Though the technology is here and now, the human factor will never go away. Even deep space probes, need the human touch, and supervision.
When I was going to A&P(Airframe and Power plant) school, thirty years ago, airliners could be taken off, fly, and land, all by a computer program.(We see that today in the UCAS aircraft the military uses) The pilots are just baby sitters, and after what happen back in January in New York, I'm sure there are 151 people glad there was someone sitting in the front seat.
What has been sacrificed is the speed of doing something at the back of the train. A train going into a siding has to leave the conductor behind to restore the switch and then he has to walk up to the front end again to operate the other switch.
I think the GO trains (push-pull commuters in Toronto) have a crew of 4. In push mode there is an engineer, a second person in the loco, a conductor and a trainman who operates the doors. (At least it was 5 years ago when I rode them.)
eightyeightfan1 Wrote:I don't think that trains will be totally crew less. It'd be hard for a dispatcher to make an emergency stop from a thousand miles away(As if its easier with someone in the cab). I don't think the government will allow a total autonomous of trains, and public out cry would prevent it from happening. Though the technology is here and now, the human factor will never go away. Even deep space probes, need the human touch, and supervision.
When I was going to A&P(Airframe and Power plant) school, thirty years ago, airliners could be taken off, fly, and land, all by a computer program.(We see that today in the UCAS aircraft the military uses) The pilots are just baby sitters, and after what happen back in January in New York, I'm sure there are 151 people glad there was someone sitting in the front seat.
I can't remember where I read it, but there's a future scenario that goes something like this: There will be a machine, a man, a stool, and a dog. The machine will do the job, the man will sit on the stool and watch, and the dog will bite the man if the man tries to touch the machine...
As for a crewless train, the Germans are working on it: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www-nbp.uni-paderborn.de/index.php?id=30&L=1">http://www-nbp.uni-paderborn.de/index.php?id=30&L=1</a><!-- m --> You simply go to the internet and order whatever vehicle you need for freight or passenger, and it is sent to you. Computer control in the vehicles allow them to "work" together on the rails.
Andrew
BR60103 Wrote:What has been sacrificed is the speed of doing something at the back of the train. A train going into a siding has to leave the conductor behind to restore the switch and then he has to walk up to the front end again to operate the other switch.
I think the GO trains (push-pull commuters in Toronto) have a crew of 4. In push mode there is an engineer, a second person in the loco, a conductor and a trainman who operates the doors. (At least it was 5 years ago when I rode them.)
Thanks, folks ... this is really interesting and I've wondered about many of these things.
I sure hope that there will always be trains crews of some sort, for the reasons pointed out above. Some Toronto City Councilors have also advocated crew-free, automated subway trains, saying that the technology is available (already used elsewhere) and that the subway trains could be safely operated that way. Again, I don't like this idea.
I've also wondered about size and roles of the staff on our GO Trains. My sons & I occasionally ride them into downtown Toronto and also watch them around the city. Usually, when they are in the "push" mode, I can see the driver in outgoing car but seldom ever see any crew in the diesel at the end of the train ... but I understand that there is an operator there.
Thanks again for this helpful info!
Rob