As many of you know, my layout is what is commonly referred to as a "proto-lance". That is, I have a prototype that is the basis for my railroad, but my towns and railroad are fictional. This gives me the inspiration to make a believable railroad, without having to spend too much effort on specifics. I chose this route because I felt that I would not be able to model my prototype (the Morenci Southern Railroad) to my satisfaction. My worry was that I would be constantly bugged by details that I didn't get "right". I also chose a timeframe - summer 1919, when the mining business was beginning to slow after WWI, but before the underground copper mines gave way to huge open pits.

While my railroad is fictional, I still read about railroads of the region in order to decide what is "believable". That is the basis for proto-lancing. This research tells me what kind of freight and passenger cars rolled at the time, what types of commodities they carried, and how many trains they ran per day. I have learned that my "prototype" had a plush business car, used reefers on the 18-mile line, and typical train lengths and schedules. But, that is not the only information available...

If I wanted to strictly model a prototype, I could choose a specific month, or a specific day. Having nailed down a specific date, I could look up what the weather was on that day, and perhaps I would learn there was a large storm the day prior washing out a bridge or that the area had been suffering through months of drought and the scenery was brown. Maybe I would learn there was a cold snap, forcing people to get out their jackets and coats for a few days. That information is readily available by researching local newspaper archives or photographs.

Let's not stop there - I could learn perhaps there was a carnival or parade in town that week - something to model with hundreds of LPBs. Or perhaps there was a traveling automobile club through town at that time, or a hotly-contested local election. That information is available. Research on my "prototype" reveals pictures of funeral trains and workers' strikes. There are also pictures of "deportation" trains where hundreds of Mexican decedents were rounded up and transported back to Mexico. These are all bits of information available to those who want to strictly adhere to their prototype.

I chose not to be a prototype modeler for fear of rivet counting myself to insanity and non-productivity. Taking it a step further, we have the ability to "rivet count" our historical culture, our climate, and our history. I plan to incorporate some of the cultural elements into my "proto-lanced" layout as a means of creating a believable southern Arizona mining town. Perhaps I will have a carnival, or the annual Cinco De Mayo celebration. For the prototype modelers, how far can you take it, or how far would you take it?

After reading that, I've come to the conclusion that vast majority of model railroaders are proto-lancing. I know I am.

And you are right, we could narrow it down to a specific town, a specific date, even a specific time of day if we want to. But seriously, who wants to go that amount of trouble?

It depends on when and where you are modeling...when it comes to how far you take it. I can think of a number of railroads were that level of research is impossible. I believe that you definitely can model a prototype railroad without picking a specific time. While most of the major lines are well known, many smaller lines have many gaps in the information about the equipment and the operations. For that matter, there is a shortage of info on the structures of the area. That is where making reasonable guessing comes in...to fill in the gaps of knowledge and keep the process from bogging down. D&RGW modelers are fanatical about details specific to individual locomotives...yet South Park modelers focus more on classes and major changes due to our fewer photographs. Newspaper accounts are helpful, but they don't tell you the precise details of a particular washout that occurred. Neither is it usually possible to figure out exactly what cars were used in each train, how close to the schedule they were, the state of repair of each car, and who the crew was.

Proto-freelance certainly seems to me to be what you are doing. Following the standard practices, yet choosing to create a new piece of railroad. I feel that proto-freelance frequently is used by lazy modelers as a license to make an unrealistic railroad. Basically, just modeling a prototype poorly. But when done correctly, it is every bit as difficult as prototypical modeling...and produces every bit as realistic of a railroad. I don't really know how to delineate the line between prototypical modeling and proto-freelance...or between freelance and proto-freelance. I don't really care what a layout is...if it is well researched and executed...it is great!

For a while now I've had the idea to say I'm modeling a town in IL, southwest of Chicago, maybe somewhere close to Joliet. This way I can run my BN equipment, and if I so desire, I can purchase and run UP, EJ&E, Metra, BNSF, CN, NS, and more. I've seen this equipment in the areas with my own eyes.

So I guess I'm not even proto-lancing at all either. I'm just using equipment from the major lines in my own way. And besides, I don't know of any logging operations in the area of Joliet either

I don't imagine there are many "hardcore" prototype modelers out there. Sure, some take it to the Nth degree, but because of space and product limitations, I imagine it would be near impossible to create a "true" scale model.

My own road is proto-freelanced. I have created a fictitious railroad company using real places with a well-researched history including timelines. Why? Because I wanted to be in control. I didn't want to obsess over details like road numbers and engine rosters. You won't find an SD90MAC on my 1950's layout, nor will you find any other "out of spec" items for that era. But the industries and operations, those are left to my imagination.

Proto-lancing?
Thats a new one on me.
I've read articles where folks would take prototype railroad, using the home road rules and regs, timetables and equipment then freelance a line. I wouldn't call that protolancing. Especially if your going to make up town names, industries and such. In other words, you can still freelance a prototype road. Freelancing. you can still model it "right down to the minute, of one day"

To me, protolancing would be to take a prototype railroad,or a fallen flag with a Right Of Way or route thats been abandoned, and model it as if it was still in operation, using the names of towns and industries that exisited along that line. Still using the real roads equipment and markings for the time period your modeling.

Prototype modelers, get right down to the reporting marks, on the equipment that the railroad used. And many have changed the side the brake gear was on"Because the model had it wrong"

With prototype you can only take it so far, you do whatever it takes to make your trains as real as it can get but you can't make the line, there's not enough room unless you do a small switching from building to building...

eightyeightfan1 Wrote:Prototype modelers, get right down to the reporting marks, on the equipment that the railroad used. And many have changed the side the brake gear was on"Because the model had it wrong"

So, if one is to get the reporting marks down correctly, they may need to nail their era down to a month and year. Once one knows the month and year, he/she could potentially go to the library and look at the headlines for the local paper in that month. Perhaps they would learn the local steel mill was shut down for the whole month because of an equipment failure - and thus to be prototypically correct would have to quit switching to that industry on their layout

nachoman Wrote:So, if one is to get the reporting marks down correctly, they may need to nail their era down to a month and year. Once one knows the month and year, he/she could potentially go to the library and look at the headlines for the local paper in that month. Perhaps they would learn the local steel mill was shut down for the whole month because of an equipment failure - and thus to be prototypically correct would have to quit switching to that industry on their layout

Basically..............

Part of the beauty of prototype modeling in the 1880s is that my reporting marks are far more limited...sometimes not including capacity...just a car number and railroad initials.

1960s models argue about what shade was CB&Q red...1880s models argue if the reefers were white, yellow, or green

Many 19th century records were destroyed in the early 20th century...with major details being lost to history. Barney & Smith was the largest car builder before Pullman's day in the sun began. In 1878, they appear to have built 25 flat cars, 5 boxcars, and 3 passenger cars for the South Park...plus supplied hardware for 35 more freight cars. The actually B&S records were destroyed in the Great Dayton Flood of 1913. The South Park's records were destroyed in a fire around 1910. The newspapers did only a moderate job of recording the order...adding as many questions as answers. The C&S records seem to have confused the builders on them...and so we don't completely know. In order to create a plan for my B&S coaches, I studied photos and Ward Kimball's 1881 Barney & Smith coach that was delivered to the Carson & Colorado.

On the right is a photo of one of those models:


The other is a baggage car which is based on my modifications to plans drawn by John Maxwell from a photo. My modifications are based around the folio of the car as rebuilt after 1906 (Maxwell had a few of the dimensions wrong)...and my paycar is based on plans of its post-1911 business car configuration with detail changes based on photos of its cousin, the 1880s office car. Since these cars were built either by the South Park or UP shops, no records exist except the folios from 1916, but the real business car as well as a sister to the baggage car are left.

For my NKP stuff, I'll be narrowing it down much as Kevin has described...so that I get the locomotive rebuildings that I want, but not the diesels and Mars lights. Still, since I'm interest in the late '40s, it isn't anywhere close to as easy to nail.

I don't consider selective compression to be the same as freelancing...just as a model of an NKP berk doesn't run on steam, nor are there any real rivets in the tender. A town doesn't need to be modeled perfectly to scale to be prototypical.

eightyeightfan1 Wrote:Proto-lancing?
Thats a new one on me.

I'm sure it's not. Maybe you've just never heard it called that before. One of, if not THE most popular model railroad of all time was proto-freelanced...John Allen's Gorre & Daphetid. There are no hard-cut rules, but the basic premise is: take a freelanced railroad and operate it prototypically.

Prototype model railroading often includes modeling a particular sub or branch, "rivet counting", and other practices already mentioned here. Freelanced roads often include creating something whimsical "Dry Gulch Railroad Co." serving the "Dusty Valley" and "Cactus Junction".

Proto-freelance offers the best of both worlds. You can answer the "what if" scenario. You can run lines to cities that your favorite road never reached. You can completely make up a completely new road, as I did with the Erie & Southern. The E&S has a history that considers the growth of other railroads in the region, a timeline consistent with history, and best of all...a carefully planned system map that would have made it a competitor. It's a prototypical railroad that never existed, but could have.

2-8-2 Wrote:

eightyeightfan1 Wrote:Proto-lancing?
Thats a new one on me.

I'm sure it's not. Maybe you've just never heard it called that before. One of, if not THE most popular model railroad of all time was proto-freelanced...John Allen's Gorre & Daphetid. There are no hard-cut rules, but the basic premise is: take a freelanced railroad and operate it prototypically.

Actually, there was no prototype for the Gorre & Daphited. It was a true freelance railroad. Proto-freelance isn't about the modeling concept of "operation", it is about intentionally mixing freelance and prototypical modeling...such as the Alleghany Midland. The Midland Route was essentially a mythical extension of the Nickel Plate, with a high fidelity to the Nickel Plate, but with a different roadname on the side despite the NKP branding.

Operation is to run trains prototypically...not proto-freelance. It can be any thing from going easy on the throttle when changing speeds to full fledged train orders and time for the air brake pressure to be pumped up.

Prototype modeling is to emulate a 1:1 railroad.
Freelance modeling is to not emulate any specific railroad, just as a medieval "free-lance" wasn't tied to a Lord.
Proto-freelancing is when a specific railroad is emulated to a high degree, yet the railroad isn't supposed to be a prototype.

Something being prototypically correct does not mean that it follows a specific prototype, but rather that it conforms to standard practice. Mixing vacuum brakes, automatic air brakes, straight air brakes, and hand brakes would not be a prototypical practice due to the technical/practical limitations of such a system. So the Gorre & Daphited was very believable because it was built on prototypical practices...but these practices weren't specific to any particular prototype railroad.

While I sometimes find Tony Koester's columns a bit pretentious, the Allegheny Midland *is* a perfect example of what I am trying to do. For all intents and purposes it was the Nickel Plate - the lettering on the tenders was the biggest difference. The column when he described his conversion to becoming a prototype modeler and actually modeling the Nickel Plate itself, perfectly illustrated of the difference between proto-freelancing and prototype modeling.

As with most things, there is a continuous range between the two. At one end is strict freelancing - where one simply builds an interesting track plan and populates the layout with the rolling stock and buildings that he or she likes - with little regard to locale or era. Or, it could be someone who makes a fictional railroad in a fictional town and having a general era (Sodor may be the most perfect example ) On the other end of the range is the strict prototype modeler - who is always striving to make his or her layout an accurate representation of a particular day and place. This may go so far as to even pay attention to the color hats the engineers wore . The huge area in-between can be someone whose layout is simply AT&SF in New Mexico during the transition era, a fictional branch of a real railroad, or a fictional railroad that strives to be an accurate representation of a real railroad except for the lettering on the rolling stock.

A freelance layout does not have any particular adherence to anything in the real world;
A proto-lance layout attempts to adhere to certain aspects of something in the real world but deliberately avoids other details;
A prototype layout attempts to recreate exactly a place and time in the real world, with concessions (concessions being different than deliberate omissions).

The best part about this hobby is that there is no shame in whichever direction a modeler chooses - I have seen excellent examples of all layout types .

Kevin asks:For the prototype modelers, how far can you take it, or how far would you take it?
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To the Nth degree?

I suspect each prototype modeler would need to set his/her goal.

Many may recall I am modeling a "paper" switching railroad owned jointly by NS and CSX as shared access.

My goal is freelance prototype railroad base on a "paper" railroad where CSX and NS rotates locomotives on a monthly bases..That means I can use either CSX or NS units depending on the "month" I am modeling.

For me that's where prototype modeling stops as everything else is freelance including the 12 block urban industrial branch my CB&T operates over.The CB&T is operated with its own crews and has a general manager and customer service representatives..

Ed asksroto-lancing? Thats a new one on me.
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Ed,There are several difinations of proto-lancing..

However..

"Proto-lancing" means you are modeling a prototype railroad in a free lance setting.That means you are not modeling any given area of the prototype you are modeling.This would include things such as a fictitious division or branch line.

This is not the same as modeling a freelance railroad which is completely fictitious-expect for the towns they may serve and some of those may be fictitious as well such as John Allen's G&D...A good example of freelance railroads would be the V&O,Utah Belt,the old Allegheny Midland,the Maumee Route.

All to sadly many gets confused when using these terms including some of the hobby's leading modelers.