Full Version: Horrible discovery about the cost of the hobby!
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Probably someone has brought this up already ad nauseum, but I just can't keep this knowledge for myself. Model railroading is said to be an expensive hobby. I guess it is true, but then it can be as costly as one wants it to be. A casual bystander might walk into a model railway store and see some some price tags on some of the prettiest models on display, sure, can't say that it's cheap. But what is the part of the hobby where the hidden costs lie? The electricity bill when running your basement empire 24 hours a day? The medical bill from cutting your fingers too often? Well, maybe, but how about the price of the real estate (the 1:1 kind, that is, that you need to build your empire on? Living in Helsinki, I figured that the real estate for a nice trains room of 20 square metres (about 200 square feet) in the suburbs could easily cost around $50000. That buys quite a lot of trains, don't you think? (For your information, my layout is 8 square feet)
tv_man Wrote:Probably someone has brought this up already ad nauseum, but I just can't keep this knowledge for myself. Model railroading is said to be an expensive hobby. I guess it is true, but then it can be as costly as one wants it to be. A casual bystander might walk into a model railway store and see some some price tags on some of the prettiest models on display, sure, can't say that it's cheap. But what is the part of the hobby where the hidden costs lie? The electricity bill when running your basement empire 24 hours a day? The medical bill from cutting your fingers too often? Well, maybe, but how about the price of the real estate (the 1:1 kind, that is, that you need to build your empire on? Living in Helsinki, I figured that the real estate for a nice trains room of 20 square metres (about 200 square feet) in the suburbs could easily cost around $50000. That buys quite a lot of trains, don't you think? (For your information, my layout is 8 square feet)

I've never been to Europe to experience that for myself, but I do sit and think that it is a blessing to live in North America where the population density is still relatively low. My layout is only 4x8, but takes up the entirety of a spare bedroom. I would imagine for a european to see someone from north america devote a large amount of real estate to a model railroad empire is unimaginable and nearly absurd. On the other hand, I have seen some excellent uses of space from European modelers, and still have operationally viable and interesting plans. The "fiddle yard" concept is especially curious to me. North Americans are so spoiled that many of the layouts built today are around-the-walls types where the track only passes through the scene once Goldth .
tv_man Wrote:Probably someone has brought this up already ad nauseum, but I just can't keep this knowledge for myself. Model railroading is said to be an expensive hobby. I guess it is true, but then it can be as costly as one wants it to be. A casual bystander might walk into a model railway store and see some some price tags on some of the prettiest models on display, sure, can't say that it's cheap. But what is the part of the hobby where the hidden costs lie? The electricity bill when running your basement empire 24 hours a day? The medical bill from cutting your fingers too often? Well, maybe, but how about the price of the real estate (the 1:1 kind, that is, that you need to build your empire on? Living in Helsinki, I figured that the real estate for a nice trains room of 20 square metres (about 200 square feet) in the suburbs could easily cost around $50000. That buys quite a lot of trains, don't you think? (For your information, my layout is 8 square feet)

I think the real estate prices in the metropolitan areas of Southern California are probably comparable to Europe. Most large model railroads in North America are built in basements, but we generally don't have basements in California. I suspect that in California (probably in the rest of the South part of the U.S.) the most popular place to build a model railroad is the garage. The cost of real estate is the driving factor behind me designing an "L" shaped switching layout on a couple of walls of a spare bedroom rather than trying to build a large model railroad that models a class 1 going across country.
For a layout located in a basement, the cost of the space is part of the house design, and would be there whether or not a train layout were involved. Most homes in my area (southern Ontario) have basements, although not all are suitable for anything more than acting as a foundation for the house. Many house the home's utilities (furnace, water heater, electrical panel, etc.) and the rest of the space may be used for whatever uses best suit the homeowner.

I designed and built my own house, with the tacit agreement that the basement was "mine", so I located the water heater and electrical panel on the ground floor. With electric heat, there was no need for a furnace. Before construction had even begun, though, I lost part of the basement to a laundry room (which was supposed to be on the ground floor also - there's no accounting for some people's preferences Icon_lol Misngth Misngth ).

We moved in as soon as we could obtain an occupancy permit, even though there was still lots of work to be done. The basement was used as a workshop while I was doing the finish carpentry (nothing to do with Helsinki Wink Goldth ), although I was finally able to set-up the benchwork supports and some of the open grid benchwork, too.
After an hiatus from modelling for 1:1 landscaping and other considerations, it was "decided" (oddly enough, misspelled as "decreed") 790_smiley_picking_a_fight that some space would be required for a recroom for the kids - might as well put it in the basement - there's nothing but a laundry room down there anyway. Eek 35 I'm also not without guilt in this "land grab", as I realised that I'd need a workshop for my trains, too, shrinking the layout space down to its current 560 sq.ft.

Much of the lumber used for layout construction was "leftovers" from the house build (officially know as "waste allowance") Wink , and operating costs are limited to electricity to run the lighting. Because the entire basement was well insulated as soon as the house had been closed-in, it requires no heating or cooling.

So, the layout cost is, for the most part, solely for the layout itself. The basement would have been required for the construction of the house, and would have been insulated and drywalled regardless of whether or not model trains were going to be involved - it doesn't make sense to not do so when attempting to save energy costs in the rest of the construction.

For the next house, I'd prefer to have a separate building for the trains, but that would also involve separate heating and cooling costs, in addition to the cost of the building and the layout. I don't see it happening. Sad Maybe musing aloud about live steam, with tracks all around the property, Goldth can help win some additional indoor real estate if and when those "negotiations" arise. Wink Misngth

Wayne
Relative, all relative. I can buy a lot of "hobby", for the price of "greens fees" for 18 holes at most local golf courses, not to mention cart rental etc. etc. etc..
Trapshooting isn't cheap either, and how about the price of a movie ticket!
A hobby, however expensive it may be, is the source of individual, personal enjoyment, something hard to come by, and well worth the expense.
Sumpter250 Wrote:Relative, all relative. I can buy a lot of "hobby", for the price of "greens fees" for 18 holes at most local golf courses, not to mention cart rental etc. etc. etc..
Trapshooting isn't cheap either, and how about the price of a movie ticket!
A hobby, however expensive it may be, is the source of individual, personal enjoyment, something hard to come by, and well worth the expense.

Excellent comment. It is all about priorities. Sometimes people ask how a single guy like myself can afford to have his own house on a very modest income (perhaps the word "single" answers that question well enough Cheers ). But if I compare my expenses to those of my peers, it seems quite doable. I don't have a car payment, and do my own auto repairs. I live close enough to work that I only go through about one tank of gas per month. I don't fork over money for cable television or the latest technology gizmos. I rarely eat out, don't own expensive clothes, don't have an "entertainment" budget, and even my hobby budget is relatively cheap. It is all about priorities. In my case, my priority is to have my own house rather than a new car, fancy clothes, or eat at fancy restaurants every week. Model Railroading can be treated the same way: It can be as expensive or cheap as you want to make it. No matter how cramped of a space you live in, you can always find room for a small layout that can be taken down for storage. Wayne's comment also makes a good point: If you have the space anyway, the cost of the space really isn't part of the hobby. It is only when you have to aquire extra space in order to dedicate to the hobby. My house is rather small, but I live alone. I have two spare bedrooms, so I may as wekk use one for a layout Goldth .
Sumpter250 Wrote:Relative, all relative. I can buy a lot of "hobby", for the price of "greens fees" for 18 holes at most local golf courses, not to mention cart rental etc. etc. etc..
Trapshooting isn't cheap either, and how about the price of a movie ticket!
A hobby, however expensive it may be, is the source of individual, personal enjoyment, something hard to come by, and well worth the expense.
Funny you should say that, I just went trapshooting this morning. One round of trap: shotshells- $6.00 (Wal Mart), range fee: $5.50 (with shooting card), trap gun, uh, we won't even go there, suffice to say in the several four figures, although you can rent one for about $10 at most ranges. Let's not even talk about the other necessary equipment like pouches, vests and hearing protection.

No, when you look at these other "hobbies", I find that model railroading is among the cheaper choices.

Oh yeah, a few years ago when we went to a grand opening of a Bass store where we met with Chief Eagles, we did see a trap gun that was selling there for $98,000. Just a tad out of our price range. Eek
ezdays Wrote:Oh yeah, a few years ago when we went to a grand opening of a Bass store where we met with Chief Eagles, we did see a trap gun that was selling there for $98,000. Just a tad out of our price range. Eek

Thats more than I paid for my basement train room with a house on top!
The comment about the practice of running trains around the walls is especially interesting, however, as it is not the most efficient use of all that space. It actually wastes the majority of it.

I would imagine that the most efficient use of space is the "mushroom" multi-level layout, although the complexity of construction and wiring is something I would not attempt myself, nor would it suit my kind of modeling.

I am considering changing my layout concept to a multi-lobular layout in the center of the room with no point being any farther than arm's reach except the mountains, perhaps. this would allow a much more efficient use of space for me, with the scenery effectively dividing the layout into "views" and trains to easily travel into hidden staging areas without the need to be so sneaky disguising the entrances. It also means I would only have to model one really good central mountain group, instead of an entire range of them! Big Grin

It would also solve the eternal problem of doors, windows and closets, since my layout space has an outside patio door, an inside standard door, a pocket door and a large folding walk-in closet door, plus a window. Working around all of that along the walls, and necessarily limiting my width to arm's reach as well, has become something of a planning nightmare, while the alternate concept seems much more workable.

Comments and first-hand knowledge more than welcome. Worship
With plenty of room you don't have to resort to theatrical trickery to make the layout appear larger than it is. I guess the bottom line with fiddle yards and multi-level layouts where helixes go down to hidden yards is that one just has to imagine the train traveling through the vast expanses of wilderness they can't model. My layout has a small fiddle yard (or something), but the idea isn't to physically lift and change trains there. Apparently some UK modelers do exactly that, but IMHO that seems to defeat the purpose of having any electrics or automation on a layout - one could then just as well push the trains onto the layout and through the station, maybe even make choo-choo sounds in the process. Multiple levels seems to be a way to make more efficient use of the room available. Some build their layout inside furniture so the room can be used for other purposes when the trains aren't running.
MountainMan Wrote:The comment about the practice of running trains around the walls is especially interesting, however, as it is not the most efficient use of all that space. It actually wastes the majority of it.

Which style of layout is best for a room is a function of both room size and room shape. You could put a 4'x8' layout in the centre of a 9'x13' room, leaving a 30" aisle around its perimeter, or build an around-the-room style layout 30" wide. Both offer adequate aisle width and easy "reachability" of all areas of the layout. However, the around-the-room layout offers 85 square feet of railroading, as opposed to the 32 square feet of the island-style 4'x8'. As an added bonus, you'll get wider radius curves and a longer mainline run, too. Goldth
My own layout room is approximately 560 square feet but, as you can see below, is a very odd shape:
[album]375[/album]

Aisles consume about 195 sq.ft., leaving only 365 sq.ft. for the actual layout. By double-decking the areas in grey, though, I can gain an extra 150 sq.ft. of layout, resulting in approximately 500 sq.ft. of layout in a 560 sq.ft. room, and still with adequate aisle widths. Eek Thumbsup

MountainMan Wrote:I would imagine that the most efficient use of space is the "mushroom" multi-level layout, although the complexity of construction and wiring is something I would not attempt myself, nor would it suit my kind of modeling.

Yeah, the "mushroom" design does offer some advantages, but, in addition to the complexity, it seems that it would also be more expensive to build, even when compared to a double-decked layout.

MountainMan Wrote:I am considering changing my layout concept to a multi-lobular layout in the center of the room with no point being any farther than arm's reach except the mountains, perhaps. this would allow a much more efficient use of space for me, with the scenery effectively dividing the layout into "views" and trains to easily travel into hidden staging areas without the need to be so sneaky disguising the entrances. It also means I would only have to model one really good central mountain group, instead of an entire range of them! Big Grin

This sounds like it might be a good option to deal with the problems which you list below. My only concern would be with minimum radius, although if the room is spacious enough, they could be fairly generous, yet still leave the majority of the layout within arm;s reach. Definitely do-able in N scale, I would think. Thumbsup

MountainMan Wrote:It would also solve the eternal problem of doors, windows and closets, since my layout space has an outside patio door, an inside standard door, a pocket door and a large folding walk-in closet door, plus a window. Working around all of that along the walls, and necessarily limiting my width to arm's reach as well, has become something of a planning nightmare, while the alternate concept seems much more workable.

Comments and first-hand knowledge more than welcome. Worship

Yeah, windows and doors are a big concern for any layout. While there's nothing like natural light, it's not very reliable (around here, it seems to disappear for most of the winter) Wink Goldth I purposely had my basement constructed with a window only in the laundry room, and then only at my wife's insistence. This not only lets me control the lighting, but it also prevents prying eyes from seeing if there's anything to steal or vandalise. Access into any layout room makes one door (or a stairway or access hatch) a necessary evil, but it's best to minimise any such other distractions, if possible. My layout room door was installed so that it swings out (not into the room), and a simple lift-out makes access easy. With no windows, the backdrop can be continuous and permanent.

Wayne
MountainMan Wrote:I am considering changing my layout concept to a multi-lobular layout in the center of the room with no point being any farther than arm's reach except the mountains, perhaps. this would allow a much more efficient use of space for me, with the scenery effectively dividing the layout into "views" and trains to easily travel into hidden staging areas without the need to be so sneaky disguising the entrances. It also means I would only have to model one really good central mountain group, instead of an entire range of them! Big Grin

It would also solve the eternal problem of doors, windows and closets, since my layout space has an outside patio door, an inside standard door, a pocket door and a large folding walk-in closet door, plus a window. Working around all of that along the walls, and necessarily limiting my width to arm's reach as well, has become something of a planning nightmare, while the alternate concept seems much more workable.

Mountainman- I think your philosophy is similar to what I am doing. My design evolved from a desire to not have lift-outs, duckunders, hard to reach places, or block windows or doors. Although mine is a 4x8 shape dictated by the size of the room, I do have one central "mountain range" that divides the layout into scenes. Of course, on the top of my mountain is a town serviced by a narrow gauge branch, the lower "loop" is divided into two "scenes" by topography, without the use of a backdrop.
Road course auto racing is a slightly expensive hobby......and I'm not talking stockcar, drag racing, dirt track or most left turn only racing. I got out of auto racing years ago (1974) when a good race prepared engine cost about the price of 10 or 12 brass locomotives and only lasted for a few races before it had to be torn apart, inspected and possibly rebuilt at the cost of a few more locomotives. Model railroading is also a much safer hobby, you don't spend a week or more in the hospital getting all your body pieces realigned if you flip a model locomotive going into a turn fast. :|
Modeling industry reps would curl up in a corner and sob like school girls if they saw what I spend on this hobby. Of what I do spend, less than 10% goes to anything "new"...primarily parts, paint and glue. Most everything I buy is older, used equipment that doesn't get a second look at most trains shows. My spending policies started out as a necessity originally, but has since become a sub hobby of sorts, leading me to seek out that which is cheap or even free as a sport of its own.
shaygetz Wrote:Modeling industry reps would curl up in a corner and sob like school girls if they saw what I spend on this hobby. Of what I do spend, less than 10% goes to anything "new"...primarily parts, paint and glue. Most everything I buy is older, used equipment that doesn't get a second look at most trains shows. My spending policies started out as a necessity originally, but has since become a sub hobby of sorts, leading me to seek out that which is cheap or even free as a sport of its own.

And I'll bet that "Model railroading is fun" just as much for you as for one who spends thousands. The "used" table is my first stop at my LHSs. Goldth

Wayne
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