Selective compression being rather common in mrr-land, are there any 'rules' by which you or the general modeling community compresses distance or is the general tendency to go for whatever looks good in a given situation. More concretely, I am thinking about the placement of trackside signage and signalling where according to the rules on the 1:1 railroad, signs indicate a certain distance and thus are situated at a certain distance from each other. On an average model railway (that is, not the big ones where 10+ feet sections of track between switches are common) adding any such signs at 'realistic distances' wouldn't really work, so compressing 50% or more might be sensible. Any comments on this? Are there prototype-following purists who scoff at any such idea?

Part of the idea of selective compression is to model "point A", and "point B", eliminating or reducing the "just plain right of way" between.
When leaving "point A", if there's a sign indicating distance to "point B", it can be modeled. When leaving "point B", the same type of sign (to "point A") can be , for all practical purposes, "back-to-back" with the first sign.
It is, after all, the distance between that "doesn't exist".

If a "prototype-following purist" takes exception, simply ask to see their layout so you can see how they "handled" the "problem". (they probably don't have one, and haven't ever dealt with "the problem". :o :oops: )

Sumpter250 Wrote:Part of the idea of selective compression is to model "point A", and "point B", eliminating or reducing the "just plain right of way" between.
When leaving "point A", if there's a sign indicating distance to "point B", it can be modeled. When leaving "point B", the same type of sign (to "point A") can be , for all practical purposes, "back-to-back" with the first sign.
It is, after all, the distance between that "doesn't exist".

If a "prototype-following purist" takes exception, simply ask to see their layout so you can see how they "handled" the "problem". (they probably don't have one, and haven't ever dealt with "the problem". :o :oops: )

I would say a 3 - 6 inches can equal half a mile. Which probably explains why I miscalculate distances all the time when giving directions... hock:

tetters Wrote:I would say a 3 - 6 inches can equal half a mile. Which probably explains why I miscalculate distances all the time when giving directions... hock:

Not to sound contradictory, but this is probably only the case for basement-sized HO empires if used on a somewhat realistic basis. 3-6 inches, even in N scale, isn't much more than a couple car lengths or the size of a large steam engine.

My own train of thought ( ) is along the same lines as Sumpter. You are trying to emulate getting from Point A to Point B. In some cases, this can be trying to simulate 100 yards or 100 miles. This is why things such as view blocks are so important for realistic modeling. It gives the impression that a distance has been traveled. Even on the same layout, this can mean different lengths. We are essentially modeling points of interest, and placing them next to each other, while trying to maintain a sense of realism that transcends both time and space.

In reference to signage along the right of way, it is important to somehow note that you have left Point A and are arriving at Point B. The distance between the two points, ideally, would not be a straight line. For operations purposes, to make this more believable, it would be better to perhaps run the train around to give the impression that a distance has been traveled. Or, make a stop at Point C further down the line first, then return back to Point B.

2-8-2 Wrote:

tetters Wrote:I would say a 3 - 6 inches can equal half a mile. Which probably explains why I miscalculate distances all the time when giving directions... hock:

Not to sound contradictory, but this is probably only the case for basement-sized HO empires if used on a somewhat realistic basis. 3-6 inches, even in N scale, isn't much more than a couple car lengths or the size of a large steam engine.

No problem...My comment was actually more of a tongue planted firmly in cheek kind of remark.

I think that with signals and other trackside signage, getting the scene to look right versus having it match the Railroad's Maintenance of Way manual is important. Your tell-tales may not be the required 500' form the tunnel, but at least they are there. The flanger signs or whistle posts are associated with the next level crossing, even if they aren't the requisite distance.

And the above points are correct - 6" can equal 1/2 mile or as much as you want/need, provided a viewblock is in place.

The only other way to "compress" distance is to use a fast clock - i.e. if we've travelled for 15 minutes, we must have gone 7 miles. But it's challenging to find a layout that can accommodate 15 minutes of running at 30 mph without multiple loops.

Andrew

Pete and Andrew are right it's not about distance it the illuision of distance , don't think you can set a real time rule for that , the one way i add to the illuision is slow train speeds and way side secenery that blocks the view of the rails off and on .
jim

In most cases, we don't have room to model prototypical distances, so are forced to resort to all sorts of modelling "trickery". This includes selective compression (removing the dull bits between the interesting scenes which we attempt to create) , cramming stuff in closer than it would really be (my telegraph poles are generally only about 10" apart, and whistle posts are perhaps 2' or 3' from crossings). The flanger signs get planted where they look reasonably appropriate, even though that's closer to obstacles than it should be. View blocks or scene separators are other useful ploys: most of my rivers are scene separators, even though most of them are (I think) more interesting than the scenes which they separate.

My layout is designed for fairly short trains (a dozen cars or less), with most trains performing switching in each town through which they pass. So, while you're busy switching in Elfrida, you tend to not notice that Lowbanks, the next town, is only 12' (1/5 of a mile) down the line. (And if you turned around, while switching, and looked across the aisle, it's only 42" away!) Speed limits are low (the highest is 45mph, on uphill grades which are usually too short or too steep to allow such speeds by most trains), so running time is increased. In most areas, it's under 25 or 30mph.

I also like to add operating restrictions, such as limiting some equipment to certain tracks, or prohibiting certain equipment from some tracks. With lots of curves and steep grades, operators have to pay attention on those short stretches of open road between towns, too, as most trains are run close to their tonnage limits - careless train handling can result in a stall, or even a derailment. Forcing the operator to actual operate, rather than simply watching the train, takes attention away from the condensed distances. What you notice is where the train is, rather than where it's been, or where it's going.

Wayne

Thanks for the replies!

I like the idea of a fast clock. I remember having read somewhere that Fremoists use a 12-fold time compression (2 hours of realtime would be 24 hours of layout time. Might reflect well onto the rest of the layout sizing.

Exactly the whistling post and telegraph pole type of distances were what I was after (I found some excellent printable signs and spent yesterday evening putting together some...N-gauge) So compression and distraction is the keyword then.

Fast Time Clock:
This is much more appropriate for "operation, and schedules", than for "distance". Time, kind of like water, can't be compressed. Whether 1:1 scale, or 1:220, 44 feet ( 6" in HO )/sec is 30 MPH ( or one steam era 40' boxcar/second )
Distance compression:
This practice, stands in direct defiance to the "Spaghetti Bowl" track plan ( too many tracks, too close, screams "distance is over compressed"! ).
I had compressed the scenes on my 3 module set, and was relatively happy with the result. Then, I had a chance to view the modules from directly above.
Without deliberately doing so, I found I had successfully maintained a good "spacial relationship" between all the elements (track, road, water, buildings, topography, and "foliage" ) of the scene, in spite of the "crowding" to get everything into the limited space. The distance is compressed, but the scene is still "believable". It is also a "model railroad show road block"........there's always a crowd of people standing, and not just walking by.
My reward? The crowds stop and spend some time to take in the scene. That's worth far more than "plaques", and "trophies".

For get about compressing distance for signs and signals. Won't work at all, there is too much compression.

Instead work with "train lengths" for signs and signals. Space signals (other than those a a fixed location such as a CP) about a train length apart and put signage a train length (or half a train length) before the thing the sign warns of.

One train length between sidings is a good minimum, that way a train isn't in two stations at once. Two train lengths between stations is better because trains working at adjacent stations won't bump into each other. The prototype has typically has between 8 and 20 train lengths between sidings (or crossovers on two main tracks).

Why not use a smile between towns?

dave1905 Wrote:For get about compressing distance for signs and signals. Won't work at all, there is too much compression.

Instead work with "train lengths" for signs and signals. Space signals (other than those a a fixed location such as a CP) about a train length apart and put signage a train length (or half a train length) before the thing the sign warns of.

One train length between sidings is a good minimum, that way a train isn't in two stations at once. Two train lengths between stations is better because trains working at adjacent stations won't bump into each other. The prototype has typically has between 8 and 20 train lengths between sidings (or crossovers on two main tracks).

Compressing distance, which is forced on most of us, works fine if there's only one train running (a single operator), or when multiple operators are restricted to operations in separate areas.
My railroad is currently "dark", although I may add train order semaphores at a future date. These would effectively divide the layout into three subdivisions, which was part of the original operational design, and would allow for three operators to work each sub independently (if I revise the wiring - at present, the entire layout is a single block).
That would place two towns (almost immediately adjacent to one another) and two staging yards within one sub, three towns (two immediately adjacent to one another) and a staging track (interchange) in another, and three towns, all well-separated, plus a staging yard and an interchange in the third sub. Of course, operations would be confined to local switching and train make-up.
As I usually operate solo, though, a fully-signalled line would be mostly for scenic effect.
Signs, however, can be useful in increasing distance and/or time. While many of my signs are "just for show", such as flanger and plow wing warning signs (the chevron-style sign, beyond the speed limit signs):


...or whistle posts:


...signs such as this one:


denote a "Restricted" track - in this case, as outlined in the employee timetable/rule book, one where certain cars or locomotives are restricted from passing the "R" sign due to limited clearances. For this situation, an idler car may be required in order to spot or retrieve cars from this siding. Other "restricted" moves include plows through station platform tracks or other areas where clearances are insufficient. These restrictions can help to increase the time needed to switch an area (need to find a low car to use as an idler, or re-route moves to more suitable tracks).

Another type of sign useful for increasing running times (and therefore the perception of distance) is the speed limit sign:


In this case, the "RS" denotes "Resume Speed" after a previous restriction, while the upper number is for passenger trains, the lower one for freights.
While I haven't yet installed them, I plan to create three or four "speed traps": basically a measured distance demarcated by "START" and "END" signs, over which an operator can "time" his train, then consult a chart to determine train speed through the trap. The railroad cops won't be handing out tickets, but repeated use should accustom operators to what a particular speed would look like, thereby enhancing operations.

Here's another speed limit sign, without the "RS"


- on some tracks, there is only one speed shown, which applies to both freight and passenger trains. The small "C" sign, shown above, is a "CLEAR" sign to signal to plow and flanger operators that they have cleared a number of restrictions (in this case the bridge at left - flangers would have had to raise their blade to clear the bridge's guardrails, while plow operators would have retracted their wing blades to clear the bridge superstructure).

Sign on another railroad, but the same interpretation. In this case, because of tight curves and clearances, passenger train speeds are lower than those for freight:


The flanger sign also visible in the photo above requires the flanger blade to be raised for the next crossing (the vertical board with a single yellow stripe) and the plow's left wing to be retracted for clearance past the elevated crossing shanty (the single half-chevron with one yellow stripe. Such signs with two stripes denote multiple similar obstacles, which will be followed by a "C" (CLEAR) sign after all such obstacles have been passed.)

Wayne

Tony Koester I think had it right. A few years ago he wrote about distances on model railroads in his Trains Of Thought column. His example was when he built his first layout, he had stock pens, only a foot from his meat packing plant. As he said:" the cows could walk to thier ultimate demise. But it was the enjoyment of spotting a car at the pens, then moving it to the meat packing plant that made the short distance between the two worth it."

Awesome layout pictures, Wayne. Interesting, how a tiny sign can make that much of a difference.