As many know the transiton was made in the 50's from steam to diesel. As i press on with the operation of our M&J ry i would like to keep near prototype time line as i want to make the line as i try to make a beleaveable story. So my qestion is this what would be the latest date for steam to mingle with diesel?

The first diesel-electric appeared on the Baltimore & Ohio (B&O) rails in 1935. Some roads were quick to completely dieselize, but for the most part, WWII delayed the inevitable until what most call the "transition era" of the 1950's. By the early 1960's most steam had been retired, though a few shortlines continued to run some steam through the 1980's.

If you do your homework, you'll find various histories depending on individual railroads. But for the most part, 1950-1960 spelled the end of steam.

Canadian National experimented with diesel-electrics as early as the late 1920s. But incredibly, they then abandoned the lesson of diesel power, and held onto steam until 1960-61 in southern Ontario.

Andrew

I think a good rule of thumb is 1960 in the USA. By 1960, all class 1 mainline steam was retired. I am aware of a few short lines that regularly operated steam until about 1970, but after 1970, every steam operation I am aware of (in the USA) was either tourist oriented, or very limited industrial switching use (seasonal).

nachoman Wrote:I think a good rule of thumb is 1960 in the USA.(seasonal).

Quoted for truth. You'd have a hard time convincing most of its regular use after that.

Here are a few exceptions:
The CB&Q continued steam operation on the Leadville line until 1962...power was 2-8-0s #541 and #538. Diesels weren't thought to be capable of operating at the extreme altitude over Fremont Pass...but they worked it out.

D&RGW NG 2-8-2s continued to share the three rails between Alamosa and Antonito with SG devils...oops...I mean diesels until 1968.

UP 844 is famous for her extended life.

CB&Q #4960 operated until 1966, but she was a sort of "Burlington Steam Program" after 1958.

The standard gauge Great Western Railway of Colorado operated with steam well into the 1960s.

The DM&IR operated 0-10-2s, 2-10-2s, and 2-8-8-4s until 1963.

The Duluth & Northeastern operated steam into the 1960s...I can't recall when...early-to-mid IIRC.

There are others, but I'd urge a date closer to 1956...with 1960 as a drop dead as has been wisely suggested. Still, you can push it into the 1960s if you really want to do so.

Great info as normal guys..... So perhaps ill take a 2nd look at early 1960's so i can include some of my favorite rolling stock.

These were still being maintained in 1960, and brought out for a fan trip. The 4-4-0 had just been displaced by a diesel on its branch line.


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Quote:The DM&IR operated 0-10-2s, 2-10-2s, and 2-8-8-4s until 1963.

I know they rostered steam into 1963, but I don't think it operated past 1960. UP also had steam stored but still on roster until 1963, though they last used it in 1959. CP had steam stored until 1965, but last used it in 1960, excluding use as stationary boilers for coach yard heating into 1961.

For the US, 1956 does seem to have been the last big year. It seems almost all remaining steam-hauled mainline passenger trains were dieselized in 56-57. Certainly, a number of roads did maintain steam past 1957, but most were clearly remnants - only the newest freight power, or only switchers, or... In Canada, whereas, both big roads maintained most of their wheel arrangements on switching, freight and passenger services into 1960.

A shortline in either country might have steam past 1960, but if that's your basis, I wouldn't expect to see steam and diesels together. Most shortlines, whether they dieselized early or late, did so very quickly - a couple years, if not a few months, from first diesel to last steam.

What diesels and rolling stock do you want to run with steam?

railroader9731 Wrote:As many know the transiton was made in the 50's from steam to diesel. As i press on with the operation of our M&J ry i would like to keep near prototype time line as i want to make the line as i try to make a beleaveable story. So my qestion is this what would be the latest date for steam to mingle with diesel?

Getting back to your original post and question...

It seems you are wanting to "proto-freelance" your own railroad, the M&J, but are wanting to be as historically accurate as possible. For my own road, I chose to model 1953. This still allows me to reasonably run steam on my rails, yet also provides access to the early diesel that I like. Specifically, GP-7s, RS-2s and TrainMasters. You need to take the same steps I did when deciding your time line:

1) Modeling the transition era, you're narrowing things down to a 10 year time frame, 1950-1960.
2) Figure out which locos were built during that period, and which ones you like.
3) Find the availability of those locos in the scale you are modeling.

Since you're freelancing, this shouldn't be a problem as most locos are offered as undecorated. The transition era is also a very popular period for modeling, so just about every engine will be available to you.

Triplex: ive looked at diesels that were built in the 50's such as a few f 7/9 sd 7/9 and 24 or gp 7/9 as for rolling stock any thing that would fit in the time frame, we will need coal,box,tank and coverd hoppers.

Triplex Wrote:

Quote:The DM&IR operated 0-10-2s, 2-10-2s, and 2-8-8-4s until 1963.

I know they rostered steam into 1963, but I don't think it operated past 1960. UP also had steam stored but still on roster until 1963, though they last used it in 1959.

I've seen films of them running in 1961. I don't know that they were being used in 1963...but they definitely stretched their rods in 1961.

Here are a coupledetails that matter more for a late-1950's/early 1960's modeler than for the more classic early 1950s:
-1957, journal boxes had to be cast into the truck frames (no Andrews trucks).
-1958, no cast iron wheels (wheels with ribbed backs)

Proto and free-lancing gives a person lots of leeway to decide what economic principles came to the fore for the railroad, and why they 'did' what they did. You'd think the most expensive mile-for-mile railroad in N. America, the Kettle Valley of southern BC, would have kept steam untl the last rivet popped, but the truth is that they retired steam full-bore by 1954 because the C-Liners were so much more efficient on the grades. On the other hand, both of the big fellas in Canadian steam kept extensive use of steam until 1958/59. The N&W much further south kept steam in full revenue use until about the mid-late 50's.

So, have both. Keep steam for nighttime freights and express passenger trains, but use first-generation diesel electric for daytime freights and the odd limited run. This would be typical for many roads extant in 1953.

-Crandell

How do day and night fit into locomotive assignments?

On the U.P. the Northern and the Challenger were never taken off the roster. They aren't used in regular service, but when they are shopped for service, the U.P. will put them on a freight in the midwest for shakedown runs before they are put back into excursion service. I think the Norfolk & Western was the last class 1 railroad to dieselize, but I don't know what year they did it or when the last steam left the rails except for excursion service. The U.P used Big Boys for helper service on Sherman Hill after they had dieselized the rest of the railroad, but again I don't know when that usage ceased. Santa Fe was pretty well dieselized by 1950 except in 1952 California had such a huge agricultural crop that they had to pull a bunch of steam out of "moth balls" during the summer to handle the extra freight. Since their main reason for dieselizing the Santa Fe so soon was the bad water in the desert, I'm not sure if any steam left California. They may have used steam in the agricultural Central Valley that year and put diesels on everything going East to avoid having to haul water into the desert for the steamers.