For the new layout, I've been looking for some prototype rail/street crossings where the road goes under a rail bridge. I found a few near me by using Google-Earth. Things were slow at work today, so I took a long lunch and went off in search of them.

One of the bridges islocated in a mixed area of small businesses and neighborhoods, so I parked in a lot which served several retail businesses (fish market, laundramat, etc) and walked down the sidewalk to get a view and take some photos. I took several photos and was walking down the sidewalk towards the bridge when a police car stops beside me. A very young officer gets out of the car and asks what I am doing. Mind you, I am on a public sidewalk. I tell him that I am a model railroader and that I am considering building a model of this bridge for my layout, so I am taking some photos of it. I don't think he understood what I meant. Next, he asks me for ID so I give him my driver's license. Then he asks me where I work so I tell him that. He asks if I have proof of where I work. Well, I have a company credit card with the company name on it, so I offer him that.

He tells me to just stand there while he gets back in his car to run the ID. He gets back out of the car and asks me again what I am doing. I tell him again, he still looks confused, then it finally dawns on him and he says "You mean toy trains?" I say "Yes, I have a layout for toy trains and I am thinking about building a model of this bridge for my layout."

At that point, another police car pulls up and an older officer gets out. He walks up to us and starts chastising the young officer for stopping right in the road - telling him that he chose a really bad place to stop and question someone. The road coming to the underpass is a curve, so he had stopped in a sort of blind spot. The older officer said "if someone was speeding around the curve, they would have smashed into the back of you." Then he says "what you should have done is put him in your car and driven to a safer place to question him." At that point, they bid me good day, got back in their cars, and drove off.

Man, can you imagine if the policeman had put me in his car for taking photos? How embarassing! And it seems rather strange that I could be hauled off in a police car for taking photos of a railroad bridge yet the Houston Police aren't even allowed to ask anyone for proof of citizenship.

Still, I guess I understand that we all need to be cautious in this era of terrorism, so I don't hold it against the officer for questioning me. I am a strong supporter of the police and fully understand they have a very tough job and that they are here to protect us all. It was just sort of surreal, ya know.

Again, I wasn't trespassing (I was on a public sidewalk), there weren't any chemical tanks or refineries or other promising terrorist targets in the area. Here's a couple photos to show where I was.

I have been pulled over half a dozen times because "my license plate was illegible", when it wasn't dirty, was mounted according to specs, and properly lit.
I have been stopped while walking to the grocery store to ask what I was doing - multiple times.
I was pulled over once because the rental truck I was driving only had a temporary registration in the window. When the deputy asked if the vehicle had a license plate, i said it was a rental from enterprise and pointed to the temp tag. he then asked if I worked for enterprise. Huh ??? I told him they were a company that rents cars and trucks, and he still needed further explanation.
I once saw a police helicopter pull a car over, shouting at them using a speaker and shining their floodlight at the car. They circled for about 5 minutes, never did a ground patrol car come to investigate, and then let the car go.
Sometimes I feel like cops are just like chief wiggum pulling people over because their tail light was "blinking when they went around that last turn". But then again their are the times I was glad they responded quickly and were inquisitive. Sometimes we get frustrated at all the rules that keep police from being able to ask what they need to to do their jobs, but if it wasn't for law abiding people being harassed over nothing perhaps their wouldn't be those rules. Those "license plate illegible" stops started to irritate me enough, I started recording the officer's name, and forwarding that information to the state DMV telling them that that officer claims they are issuing illegible license plates. They werent pulling me over for the license plate. They were using that as an excuse. Young guy driving an old car - I must be a thief .

Gary, You really need to file a formal complaint. They had no business questioning you at all. You are allowed to take pictures anywhere you want.
Somewhere I posted a link to the photographers bill of rights. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm">http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm</a><!-- m -->
Police have no business hassling any of us, when they are the first ones bitching about having to enforce Federal laws.
Charlie

Sorry for such a mixed up, bad experience you went through with the police. I admire them for their desire to serve, much like those of us in the military, and can appreciate how tough their job must be. But writing that, I don't know what the officer was thinking in this case. Maybe he's just one of those guys that think everyone is up to something...and/or maybe their department had some information not released to the general public about a credible threat to infrastructure. I dunno. Clearly, the young police officer gained some experience on that stop.

But now, with the help of some Woodland Scenics little plastic people, you could model this memorable meeting right next to the bridge you plan to make on the layout!

The experience wasn't too bad, it was more like "is this really happening?" The officer wasn't rude or forceful at all.

Charlie, I appreciate the sentiment. I think I'll let this one go for now. I've still got alot of exploring and railfanning to do over in that area - if this happens again, then I would consider a complaint.

Herc Driver Wrote:But now, with the help of some Woodland Scenics little plastic people, you could model this memorable meeting right next to the bridge you plan to make on the layout!

That is a great idea!

Gary S Wrote:The experience wasn't too bad, it was more like "is this really happening?" The officer wasn't rude or forceful at all.

And at least the officer didn't make you late for work

Kevin, on the other hand, with your pevious experiences, I wouldn't blame you if you went ballistic if an officer stopped and questioned you about taking photos.

Gary S Wrote:Kevin, on the other hand, with your pevious experiences, I wouldn't blame you if you went ballistic if an officer stopped and questioned you about taking photos.

I'm an extremely mild mannered person, so it would come down to what I would want to say versus what I would actually say What I would want to say would be "are you going to give me a ticket for something, because I am late for an appointment." Of course, that would likely lead me to being frisked and put in the back of a car. But I am also a wise person and realize such a remark would do nothing but waste more of my time .

Wow! You wasn't tazed or thrown to the ground,cuff and stuffed?

Yeah,being question by a LEO can give you mental stress.

I recall hearing a cop being dispatch to my location-a suspicious person type call-on my scanner..Imagine my shock when the cop drove by and wave and radioed in its one of our local train buffs waiting on trains.. hock:

Gary,

I almost have to laugh and cry at the same time when I read this. As a railroad cop for over 33 years I have dealt with this from several different positions. Let me start by saying THIS IS AMERICA and you have the legal right to photograph anything you want, especially if you can see it from a public place. That being said you must also understand several things:

1. Most people have no clue what that means. It means that if you stand on the sidewalk and photograph a train, plane, building, police car, etc. you have broken no laws. I could
go into the Fourth Amendment and bore you to death with it. Just remember, if you can see it without trespassing (anywhere) you can photograph it (you can watch your naked
neighbor in their home legally from the public sidewalk. It's up to them to close the curtains). BUT, that does not mean someone who is not familiar with you and your activity might
not get suspicious and call the police. In this case the police must check it out. It is their job and responsibility and they must answer every call one way or another. May I add this,
never give the cop a hard time in the street, he will always win. He has lots of friends out there and they show up without notice. I suspect this young cop was just green and not
familiar with rail fanning activity. He's learning, as is evidenced by the old cop chewing his butt for stopping where he did. That's how we gain street experience. On the other hand
I think the old cop was wrong by allowing you to see and hear him chastising the younger cop. I would have helped him clear the call and explain his error in private later.

2. I am a railfan and have been for ever. Many of my fellow railroad employees also are railfan. However, most of us don't like railfans because too many
of them push the limits. The railroad companies don't mind you taking photos of their trains. They do not want you TRESPASSING to do so. That makes you a liability. Way too
many railfans think they know it all and think that because they know a little more about trains they can take "privileges". Keep in mind, train crews report most every trespassing
violation they see. Naturally, railroad police are spread pretty thin so we transfer the call to the local police department (LPD) for handling. Legally that is a request for service from
a resident of that community (the railroad). LPD will respond and take appropriate action, including arrest. And they are not as understanding as railroad cops. OK, I know what most
railfans think of railroad cops but believe it or not, they are more lenient than state or local cops.....cause we know what a railfan is, remember?

3. In today's social environment and our out of control government seeing terrorist everywhere one must expect to be contacted by law enforcement anywhere, any time. Be aware,
you don't know what has transpired to bring you in contact with this cop. The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) puts out page after page of sensitive intelligence info and
suspicious persons and activity. It just might happen that YOU resemble someone who they are watching. It's his job and responsibility to confirm that you either are or are not
someone they want. Give the cops the courtesy and respect the deserve while doing their jobs. Granted, they are people too and some are jerks. Just remember, they are the
biggest 'street gang' in the US and they will always win out there. If you have a complaint take it to the chief later. There are processes in place to handle it. And don't demand
he be fired because you're offended. Ask that the situation be explained and that maybe he could be a little more friendly next time.

My other advice is to print out and carry with you a copy of the photographers rights as mentioned by Charlie above. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm">http://www.krages.com/phoright.htm</a><!-- m --> It's a good guide for you and anyone who might question your activities.

Kevin

Several years ago, on another forum, someone started a post stating that "NS was working a deal with local police agencies to get them to enforce trespassing laws on the railroad. From that statement it snowballed and there was all kinds of crazy stuff being posted. I decided to step in and explain the facts of life to them. Here' in my posting. The subject is in quotes, followed by my reply:



Gentlemen;



I have read with interest the correspondence regarding the introduction of legislation to make "trespassing on railroad property a crime". Please allow me to address this issue from a different standpoint. I am a Norfolk Southern Police Officer. I was a Conrail Police Officer for 25 years before NS. I have seen no change in the railroads' position on trespassing. Conrail did not allow it, NS does not allow it. Here in the northeast the function and purpose of the police department has not changed. Conrail Police ejected trespassers just as NS Police do.



1. As for "empowering the local cops to arrest anyone on railroad property for any reason...."

Folks, the local police already have that authority. It's their jurisdiction, they can arrest any violator they

encounter. They do not need the railroads permission to do so.



2. You were told they are going to "sweeten the idea by having the local jurisdictions get back a share

of the fines......". They already get the fine. The railroad is a private corporation and does not have the

authority to collect fines for violations of state laws. When a violator is cited the local magistrate handles

the case just like a traffic ticket. If the person is found guilty the fine goes to the court. From there it's

divided between the state and the local municipality. The railroad gets nothing from the fines or

court costs.



3. As for "railfaning being recognized as a sport....", don't hold your breath. Even if it were to be

recognized as a sport the railroad companies would still have the right to disallow trespassing. How 'bout

I bring the Mighty-Might football league over and we start playing our games in your front yard every Friday

afternoon? NO? Hummm, wonder why?



4. "the railroad benefits from expert visitors.......". Who made you an expert? Have you ever attended a

single day of mandatory railroad safety training? How about track geometry training, mechanical or

C&S training? Do you have the latest, up to date bulletin in your hands? Have you been notified of any

special orders or moves that day? Division notice? Are you wearing the required safety shoes, glasses,

hard hat? What about the orange safety vest? Do you have two way communication with trains and the

dispatcher?



5. "permits or exemptions for railfans...." How much are you willing to pay for these permits? The

railroad companies do not exist to serve railfans. They are in the business of moving this countries

freight and goods to where they are needed. If they were to issue permits they wound have to hire who

knows how many employees to do the paperwork for these permits. Each railfan would have to carry

their own insurance before they would be allowed anywhere near the property. A contractor has to carry

over three million $$$$ of insurance before he can enter railroad property (plus attend railroad safety

training, as mentioned above) to do a job. How much insurance do you have?



And what about liability? Signing a waiver means nothing. When your dead you family can still sue. They

didn't sign any waiver. They want compensated for your loss. And what about the train crew? You think

your waiver makes them feel any better about running you over? Is your estate going to pay for their

counseling? Some trainmen never recover from seeing another human being killed or seriously injured

right in front of them and they could do nothing to prevent it. Some trainmen have ended up divorced

because of not being able to handle the thought that "they killed someone". It's not their fault....but tell

that to your conscious!



6. "The tragedy of Sept. 11" really has little to do with this issue. Yes, security has been beefed up some.

The entire country has beefed up security. So what. The incident on Sept. 11 is simply another reason

along with those that had always existed, to tighten security at all of our industries. For your information,

since 9/11, railroad police officers have been instrumental in the apprehension of three persons known

to have ties to terrorist organizations who were "trespassing". One was a supposed railfan, complete

with camera and scanner. He also had detailed diagrams of two major railroad bridges on the east

coast. All were turned over to the FBI.



Gentlemen, there are limits that we must abide by. There are thousands of good locations were railfans can take their photos, watch trains, etc, without trespassing. There are railfan weekends that the railroads (even NS) participate in. You have rail excursions and tourist railroads you can ride and photograph. Take advantage of these opportunities.



One thing about railfans is that, unlike the general public, they already know they are not supposed to trespass. Most non-railfans don't know any better. Railroad property is vast and we just can't keep up with the NO TRESPASSING signs. They disappear as fast as we can put them up. And believe it or not, many are removed by railfans. Metal signs end up in a railfans "collection". Paper signs just get torn down and thrown away. And when an NS police officer encounters a trespasser they are issued a warning if it's a first offense. Second and subsequent offenses are cited as a matter of policy. Other railroads are no different. Don't you think the heads of these police departments all get together and discuss this stuff? They come up with guidelines for all railroads and work together toward a common goal: keeping employees and the public safe.



Railroad property is PRIVATE PROPERTY. It's not for walking your dog, riding an ATV, bicycles, jogging, hunting or fishing (and they DO get arrested same as anyone else), driving your car or railfaning. Please save yourself some headache and obey the law.



Thanks,



Kevin

Very well put Kevin. You have done a great job over the years, and I'm proud to be your friend. Let the summer fun begin. Enjoy your vacation.
Charlie

Here's one for the recoerd books. I, as engineer for the NYS&W operating train UT-1, was PULLED OVER BY A COP!!!! Folks, I can't make this up!! Here's how it went down:

We were just finishing our day - heading back into Utica (NY) to interchange our cars to Conrail. Their is a portion of our railroad in Utica that runs, literally, down Schuyler (Skyler) Street. It runs for about a mile right down the center of the street. We were about halfway down when I noticed a police vehicle run along side the train, pass us, and STOP ON THE RAILS 3 blocks ahead of me (about 500 feet ahead). The FEMALE officer then got out of her car and put up her hand TELLING ME TO STOP!!!!!!!!!!! We were at timetable speed of 8 mph with about 24 cars and 1 engine (NYSW 2012). Imagine stopping that train going any faster :o

After stopping the train short of the cruiser, my conductor "jumped" out of the cab to see what's up. We thought we may have "had a rider" as kids usually liked to "hop a train" once in a while. I saw him shake his head then proceeded back up in the cab with the officer behind. when he got back up he said "Steve, you ain't gonna believe this". "You got pulled over for running a STOP SIGN".

You see, there are stop signs on this street, but folks, they are for cars...not trains. Anyway, she wanted to see my license. I asked why. She said that I ran 3 stop signs. Just before I could get in my explanation, another officer arrived. Meanwhile, I have quite a few intersections tied up with this stopped train. I told her to let me continue to our terminal and we can hash this out there. I don't want to tie up traffic anymore - which is why the other officer arrived - to see why I stopped the train. After I told him why she pulled me over, he started laughing. She then realized that the joke was on her.

He told me after I get the train moving, "I will explain the laws to her". We got the train underway and arrived back at the terminal safely with a story for everyone to laugh at. I think I was the only engineer to ever get pulled over by a cop>

I can't make this up!

FedEx13 Wrote:After stopping the train short of the cruiser,

The only thing that would have made the story funnier is if you couldn't stop the train in time.

Railcop, I appreciate the great commentary and thoughts. Thank you.

Now, for all concerned, I do want to reiterate that I wasn't trespassing. I parked in the retail parking lot, walked to the sidewalk, then to the bridge. It was only about 5 minutes before the policeman stopped. I don't think there was time for anyone to "report suspicious activity." The policeman just happened to be driving by and saw me. Also, I cooperated fully and did not give the officer a hard time. I complied with his requests and tried to explain what I was doing.

In retrospect, it wasn't that big of a deal. At the time, I was rather taken aback by being stopped for taking photos. It was just really weird, being that I am a "squeaky clean" law-abiding tax-paying citizen that doesn't get stopped by the police very often. And as I mentioned, I am a strong supporter of law enforcement officials, I appreciate what they do, and I certainly don't want to hamper their duties. They have to put up with enough crap as it is.

Related note: Last night, I had the opportunity to speak with a Brazoria County Sheriff. My neighbor's dog has been running loose and terrorizing the neighborhood - last night the dog chased my daughter's boyfriend through MY yard, barking and snarling - so I called the sherriff. After making the dog complaint, I told the Sheriff that I was a model railroader and that I sometimes take photos of rail bridges and such for use with my layout. I then asked him if he saw me taking photos of a railroad bridge, would he stop and question me. He said, without hesitation, "Absolutely." He then explained that with all the refineries here on the Gulf Coast, and with much of the chemicals being transported by rail, all law enforcement agencies down here have been instructed to check out all activities such as this. He said it certainly wasn't against the law to take photos, but they were obligated to check it out.

Now that I am aware, I will be better prepared to explain myself and take it in stride next time. I think I will take some photos of my layout to carry with me to show the officer what I am doing if I get questioned again. That's probably not a bad idea for all of us.