I have always appreciated seeing the pictures and reading the histories of the various railroads everyone models. And even been inspired to purchase an engine or car based on the information I've learned and appreciated. So I'm at another cross roads of sorts that maybe you guys can help me out with. Kato has announced a release of their E8's in the Penn Central "PC" black and white. I've never thought about owning a Penn Central -anything- before since it pre-dates my layout's time frame by a number of years. But, I'm also a fan of running (either real or not) excursion trains. So my question is this...is there any organizations that have a Penn Central E8 on their excursion or museum refurb roster? I guess I'm trying to justify buying one of those black E8's and just looking for a reason to pull the trigger and order one. I already have the Kato GG-1 in black Amtrak colors on order and thought it might be interesting to have the black E8 run behind the black GG-1 on an excursion run to please the GG-1 fans on my LPP layout, but I can't find a single picture of a GG-1 and E8 running together. I've heard stories of the E8's running behind the GG-1's when they were out of the catenary system, but haven't found a single picture on the popular sites.

So I know there's some PC fans out there, and here's your chance to blast away with those E8 and GG-1 pictures, stories, histories and such. C'mon...let's see 'em! Help a guy decide whether or not to buy a black PC E8.

I did some searching because I've seen video of an E8 in Pennsylvania RR colors on a fan trip...no luck finding a PC E8 but a photo of a restored Pennsy unit can be found toward the bottom of the page here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://railfan.com/photoline/photoline_mar2010.php">http://railfan.com/photoline/photoline_mar2010.php</a><!-- m -->

TO be honest, is there even a Penn Central society at all, and would anyone admit to being a member?
The Pennsy painted E I'm pretty sure did spend time as a Penn Central unit, then it was one fo the Conrail executive units, if it's the same one I'm thinking of.

--Randy

I remember riding on a commuter train from Matawan, NJ to NYC as a kid in the mid-70's and the lead unit was an all black PC E-unit. I've even found pictures of that train nearing Matawan (or one very much like it) on a few websites. I'm wondering if they ever "helped" the GG-1 on its route, or is this just a pipe dream? I hate to admit it...but I never even considered owning a PC engine...but I keep seeing good shots of PC on Ralph's layout and I've really grown to like that all-black PC look. It's amazing that in such a highly traveled and populated area there were so few pictures taken of Penn Central in the later years. Or at least, those pictures haven't found their way to the web yet.

Herc Driver Wrote:Or at least, those pictures haven't found their way to the web yet.

^ That. There are very few people scanning and posting old shots online. Those that are posted are generally lost in the sea of new shots right off the digital cameras.

rrinker Wrote:TO be honest, is there even a Penn Central society at all, and would anyone admit to being a member? --Randy

Hey! I resemble that remark!
Ralph
PS. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.pcrrhs.org/index.html">http://www.pcrrhs.org/index.html</a><!-- m -->

Oh... Herc, have you see this site? <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?id=PC">http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/locoList.aspx?id=PC</a><!-- m -->
Glad you're finding some value in black-dipped!
Ralph

Penn Central E-unit, coming...



...and going...


Actually, it sat there all day, idling.

Wayne

Herc Driver Wrote:I remember riding on a commuter train from Matawan, NJ to NYC as a kid in the mid-70's and the lead unit was an all black PC E-unit. I've even found pictures of that train nearing Matawan (or one very much like it) on a few websites. I'm wondering if they ever "helped" the GG-1 on its route, or is this just a pipe dream?

while anything is possible, More likely than not the GG1s just interchanged with the E8s at Long Branch, NJ.

Quote: I hate to admit it...but I never even considered owning a PC engine...but I keep seeing good shots of PC on Ralph's layout and I've really grown to like that all-black PC look. It's amazing that in such a highly traveled and populated area there were so few pictures taken of Penn Central in the later years. Or at least, those pictures haven't found their way to the web yet.

There really aren't any pictures. At the time, most people didn't like penn central (and later conrail), preferring the "old" railroads. Even of those surviving, many of their passenger operations that weren't taken by amtrak were getting controlled by local governments, and during the Penn Central era, you'd find a lot of CNJ, and Erie Lackawanna equipment with NJ DOT logos on the flanks. This appeared to turn people off.

There is such contempt for that time period that many "experts", dvds and books by respectable publishers are just flat out wrong (some captions on penn central era commuter cars are hilarious. the same unit can be on two pages back to back and both times be mis-identified as something else). people just stopped paying attention, and so its very difficult to find any information. the best thing you can do is try and find books and go to train shows where this sort of thing is the subject.

railohio Wrote:

Herc Driver Wrote:Or at least, those pictures haven't found their way to the web yet.

^ That. There are very few people scanning and posting old shots online. Those that are posted are generally lost in the sea of new shots right off the digital cameras.

RO is absolutely right. What i usually do is go to RRpicturearchives.net, and find the equipment i want to see, and try to home in as close as possible. If i need a particular year, or place, i use "Ctrl+F, and type what i'm looking for, and tell it to highlight those words, and then i just skim through the shots until i see something highlighted.

otherwise, if you search something like NJ trainsit Arrow III in rrpicturearchives, you'll get a sea of photos from the last ten years or so, and just maybe a few shots in between from the 70s, 80s, or 90s

doctorwayne Wrote:Penn Central E-unit, coming...



...and going...


Actually, it sat there all day, idling.

Wayne

Actually, thats a tricky unit! Notice that it only has three road numbers. This means its an Amtrak unit, not Penn Central. The general rule of thumb (even today) is that amtrak only has three digit road numbers, (except for some GG1s loaned from Penn Central just before conrail, and some other GG1s had "4"s added in frong of their 900 series road number right before the AEM7s came in. there may be a few other 4 digit freaks on amtrak, but not many). Early in amtrak, the railroad just wasn't able to keep up with painting all its units.

Penn Centrals surviving Es were all in the 4000 through 4300 series road numbers, with MANY gaps, between units going to amtrak and others just dieing permanently.

Great - great- information guys - thanks! I lived in Matawan and Red Bank, NJ as a kid (as well as a few other places...yeah, we moved a lot) and remember seeing these E-units rumbling through the towns. Everyone around my neighborhood either took the train into the city or the bus. Very few ever drove. My dad probably logged hundreds of hours commuting to and from the city on those trains. But we never took a picture. Not once. I even had the chance to take an Amtrak from NYC to Boston with a GG1 on the point, and once again, never got a picture.

I really appreciate the ones that get posted here, since you never see them anywhere else.

I'm going to keep doing some research and see what I can find. Until then, I'm still mulling over adding a black PC to the engine roster...and I'm open to persuasive arguments from all you Penn Central types who can come up with a good argument for me to add this diesel to our layout.

Thanks guys!

Herc Driver Wrote:take an Amtrak from NYC to Boston with a GG1 on the point,

I've never heard of GG1's on this route, what did they do, go from Penn Station east over the hell's Gate Bridge and up the New Haven?

jglfan Wrote:

Herc Driver Wrote:take an Amtrak from NYC to Boston with a GG1 on the point,

I've never heard of GG1's on this route, what did they do, go from Penn Station east over the hell's Gate Bridge and up the New Haven?

The GG1s did travel into New Haven territory during the Penn Central years and later, but the wires didn't extend to Boston in the time of the GG1. The New Haven had almost no passenger locomotives by the time of the Penn Central. the New Haven had long retired its electric fleet with the exception of the freight hauling E33s, and a handful of EP5s (classed E40 by Penn Central). These didn't last very long, as they frequently burnt out and the railroads couldn't afford to keep up with them. The last EP5s were turned to freight locomotives and lived out their days between Harrisburg, PA and Northern New Jersey in 1976 . New Haven did have some MU cars, but the Pullman Standard washboards were going down the drain.

Penn Central, and later Amtrak, would run GG1s all the way up to the end of New Haven's electrification.

Herc Driver Wrote:I'm going to keep doing some research and see what I can find. Until then, I'm still mulling over adding a black PC to the engine roster...and I'm open to persuasive arguments from all you Penn Central types who can come up with a good argument for me to add this diesel to our layout.

Thanks guys!

Penn Central E8s, either in full PC paint or Amtrak patches, pretty much went EVERYWHERE. If you model that time period, you can make an excuse. Unfortunately, pretty much NONE of the Penn Central E8s survived. Conrail retired ALL of the E8s it had, except 4022, which was a former Erie unit (Conrail would later buy former PRR/PC amtrak E8s for its OCS train). Some former PC units survived on Amtrak, but even those were quickly being phased out by the mid 1970s with F40PHs, P30CHs, and SDP40Fs. Many of those received either Amtrak Phase 1 or Phase II paints.


So basically, there is no realistic way to include one of these units unless you model that time period. However, it is YOUR railroad, and if you like it an have the money, go for it.

We left Penn Station in the morning and went north to Boston arriving in the afternoon, but I couldn't tell you the exact route. I remember the trip because the heat was stuck "On" and the train personnel had to open the doors of the passenger cars to allow the heat to escape...and it was December! It was so hot, I ended up standing near one of the open doors by the Amtrak employee for most of the ride. (He had placed a chain across the door opening and stood there keeping people back from the door's edge. There was also no dining or snack car on this particular run...only an Amtrak guy selling pre-made sandwiches from the front two seats of our particular car. I remember walking up to the train to board being annoyed that the engine was not one of the diesel units I had hoped and expected but instead, a dirty, dented, all black engine that I later found out was a GG-1. If we traded out engines sometime during the trip, or if they hooked another diesel engine to the point prior to us pulling out of the station, I don't remember that sort of a delay, but it certainly could have happened. We traveled at a pretty fast rate of speed and had very few stops along the trip. I'd have to do a lot of checking to determine if Amtrak used a GG1 on any part of the NYC to Boston route in the very early 70's, or if my memory is totally and completely wrong...but I really remember seeing a GG-1 connected to the train we boarded.

I didn't expect to get a good history education about Penn Central on this thread - but it sure is great to read all the information! I can't understand the animosity towards Penn Central though...being a kid spending some years in NY state and NJ, it was common to see PC all over and I didn't really think much about it.