I have a question about the procedure when an engine with some cars is servicing some industry spurs.
1. The cut will stop in front of the turnout of the industry spur and waits until the switchman has lined the turnout
2. If the industry spur is not very short the cut will stop again after if ran over the turnout to pickup the switchman to do the switching at the industy
3. When the cut is back on the through track it will wait again until the switchman has realigned the turnout and is back on the cut.
In all that cases may the switchman just "hang" on the last car if the way to go is short otherwise the engine has to wait until he passed all the cut and is in/on the engine.
Is that the correct understanding of necessary wait time of the prototype to get the switchman doing his job and to get him back on the train? Times I have to "simulate" doing switching on my layout.
What is the correct procedure to cross a road if the engine is pushing?
a. speed limit 10 mph and protection by switchman with flares etc. if no gates etc.
b. just go ahead if the crossing is protected by gates etc.
c. I assume the gates are under local control. Therefor the cut has to stop, the switchman has to turn the gate/flasher etc. on, wait until the cut has passed, turn it off and get back on the waiting cut.
is that the way a crossing is handled during switching?

faraway Wrote:I have a question about the procedure when an engine with some cars is servicing some industry spurs.

Let's see if I can answer your questions, based on my experiences....

First, in general on most industrial spurs, the maximum permissible speed on the "main track" or lead will not exceed 10mph. In some cases, if the spur is in really bad shape, you might do well to hit a top speed of 5mph on a good day. Switching individual industrial tracks, you'd probably never get up to more than 5mph for a very short distance. Maximum coupling speed anywhere is 4mph and that's rough!

And for reference - from the General Code of Operating Rules:
"When cars or engines are shoved and conditions require, a crew member must take an easily seen position on the leading car or engine, or be ahead of the movement, to provide protection. Cars or engines must not be shoved to block other tracks until it is safe to do so."

faraway Wrote:1. The cut will stop in front of the turnout of the industry spur and waits until the switchman has lined the turnout

Yes, you'd have to wait for the switchman to line the switch and make sure the way is clear - length of time would depend on several factors. Is there a derail that must also be opened or a gate? May also have to wait for the facility to give you authorization to move on to the track. Lot's of variables here. On some of my industrial tracks, I want to include working derails that would have to be opened in addition to the switch. But in general, just the time it takes you to come to a complete stop, manually line the switch and then start moving again is enough.

faraway Wrote:2. If the industry spur is not very short the cut will stop again after if ran over the turnout to pickup the switchman to do the switching at the industry

I'm assuming that you are talking about something like the train coming off a main line on to an industrial spur and must report the main track clear and all switches lined and locked for main line movement? In that case, yes, you'd have to wait for the switchman to line the switch back and again go to the end of the cut of cars. Of course if you had a three man crew, then one man would ride the end of the cut and the second would be on the engine and he'd take care of lining the switch back after the train is on the spur, etc.

faraway Wrote:3. When the cut is back on the through track it will wait again until the switchman has realigned the turnout and is back on the cut.

Yes, you'd have to wait for the switchman to walk from the switch to the engine after closing up, unless of course you're still using cabooses. Ahhhhhh, the good old days when every train had a caboose and at least a four man crew! Also consider the additional time for making moves, if you were a one man crew using a remote control engine!!!

faraway Wrote:In all that cases may the switchman just "hang" on the last car if the way to go is short otherwise the engine has to wait until he passed all the cut and is in/on the engine.

Yes, even if the spur is a long one someone must ride the end (leading) car of the cut. Some roads still use cabooses for that purpose to give a crewman a place to ride for very long shoves, but many don't. I've had to ride the end of a cut of cars for considerable distances hanging on the side of a box car, but in most cases, I'd at least have a hopper or covered hopper to ride on and that gives you a pretty good place to ride.
EDIT -- I may have misunderstood your question here. My response refers to shoving the car or cars. But if you were just asking if the switchman would ride the car out of a spur to the switch. I sure would. Better to ride than walk. You generally wouldn't ride the last car of the train if you were finished working the spur and headed home. Per the rules, you'd ride the engine.

faraway Wrote:Is that the correct understanding of necessary wait time of the prototype to get the switchman doing his job and to get him back on the train? Times I have to "simulate" doing switching on my layout.

You don't need to take these times to the extreme. You'd get bored really fast if you had a ten car cut and sat there waiting 5 minutes or more for the switchman to walk the length of that cut. Just waiting a few seconds between moves, adds a lot of time to your operations. In other words, stop at the switch, wait a couple of seconds, then move. Make a coupling, wait a couple of seconds, then move. If there is some situation where you'd have to wait a long time for some reason, use that time to go grab a cup of coffee or something. I find when operating my temporary layout, that just the time that it takes for me to reach down, pick up a cup of coffee or whatever, take a drink and then put it back down works about right for most situations. It's pretty much up to you how far you want to take this. It can become too much like real railroad work! I'd at least say I have a three man crew. Two men working the ground cuts your working time considerably.

faraway Wrote:What is the correct procedure to cross a road if the engine is pushing?
a. speed limit 10 mph and protection by switchman with flares etc. if no gates etc.
b. just go ahead if the crossing is protected by gates etc.
c. I assume the gates are under local control. Therefor the cut has to stop, the switchman has to turn the gate/flasher etc. on, wait until the cut has passed, turn it off and get back on the waiting cut.
is that the way a crossing is handled during switching?

Depends on the situation for the most part, but in general...
a. Train comes to complete stop a few feet clear of the crossing, switchman dismounts, sets out fusees if required and flags all oncoming traffic. Once crossing is clear or traffic is stopped train would enter crossing and the switchman would again mount the last car.
b. If shoving to a signal protected crossing, in most cases you'd still come to a complete stop before entering the crossing to make sure that all traffic had stopped and people actually noticed that there was a train there. Of course, individual railroads may have rules to cover this situation, where you wouldn't have to come to a complete stop, provided you know that all vehicular traffic is stopped.
c. On an industrial spur, automatic crossing gates/signals would probably have a very short track circuit (a hundred feet or less) and would not be manually activated. I'm sure there may be situations where you'd find manually activated crossing signals, but in general you wouldn't. If you did, there would still be a track circuit involved and the signals would shut off after the train cleared the circuit.

If you had a lot of moves to make back and forth across a road or street, then you'd set out fusee's, but still stop before moving over the crossing in case that the person in that approaching car is talking or texting on their cell phone and totally oblivious to what was going on around them!

Once again, this can be taken to the extreme. Just move up to the crossing, stop, wait a couple of seconds, turn on the bell, start blowing the horn and then proceed. It will certainly make things take longer, but without getting boring. Even if I weren't modeling an industrial spur, I'd still follow prototype practices when running trains. After all, it is supposed to be a model of a railroad and as such, should be operated like a railroad, at least within reason. Don't think any of us would want spend 8 to 12 hours real time operating our layout! Well on second thought, if the wife paid me by the hour to do it and stay out of her hair...

Ed, thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions so complete!
I will, as you indicated, not do "real time" breaks but pause some seconds to simulate the work to be done by the switchman. Most important is not to align a set of turnouts from the central panel, run over all off them with the cut and set them back t one operation again from the central control panel. A turnout can be set locally only if the cut is close enough that a switchman can perform the task and return.

One more thing.. (you have been afraid of it:-)
a. I blow the horn - - . - before the crossing and until the crossing is blocked by the engine (or first car if pushing). In parallel the bell is ring constantly while approaching and passing the crossing. The ditch lights will be at full power together with the bell.
b. I ring the bell if the cut runs in an area (e.g. on the street running tracks on the pier at the south yard) where the train shares the traffic with automobiles or pedestrians.

It must be very noisy in areas like Vernon. The horn is blown frequently and the bell is switch on when the shift begins and stays on most of the time...

faraway Wrote:Ed, thank you very much for taking the time to answer my questions so complete!

You're quite welcome - hope my answers weren't too hard to follow.

faraway Wrote:Most important is not to align a set of turnouts from the central panel, run over all off them with the cut and set them back t one operation again from the central control panel. A turnout can be set locally only if the cut is close enough that a switchman can perform the task and return.

I guess I assumed that you threw all your turnouts manually as I do, but manual or not, you're correct. Don't line the switch until the train comes up to it and stops. If you had two or more switches in a row that needed to be aligned, then your switchman would walk along and line each of them until he had the route he wanted, BEFORE the train would move. According to the rules you don't move the train until all the switches are properly lined and locked for movement. However, if you spend much time around some rail locations, you'll see that rule "bent" quite often.

faraway Wrote:One more thing.. (you have been afraid of it:-)
a. I blow the horn - - . - before the crossing and until the crossing is blocked by the engine (or first car if pushing). In parallel the bell is ring constantly while approaching and passing the crossing. The ditch lights will be at full power together with the bell.
b. I ring the bell if the cut runs in an area (e.g. on the street running tracks on the pier at the south yard) where the train shares the traffic with automobiles or pedestrians.
It must be very noisy in areas like Vernon. The horn is blown frequently and the bell is switch on when the shift begins and stays on most of the time...

Yep, you've got that covered. Approaching crossing engine in lead, you turn on the bell, which on some roads causes the ditch lights to start alternately flashing, then you start your - - . - crossing signal (which according to the rules is to be repeated as necessary until you pass the crossing). Shoving, you may or may not hear the horn signal blown, but it should be until the first car fouls the crossing. Bell would not need to be rung.

Here's another except from the Standard Code of Operating Rules:
"Ring the engine bell under any of the following conditions:
* Before moving, except when making momentary stop and start switching movements.
* As a warning signal anytime it is necessary.
* When approaching public crossings at grade with the engine in front, as follows:
+ If distance permits, ringing must begin at least 1/4 mile before the public crossing and continue until the crossing is occupied. or
+ If distance does not permit, ringing must begin soon enough before the crossing to provide a warning and continue until the crossing is occupied."

Special Instructions for specific areas would modify the general rule as required. Bell would be rung going down city streets as you mentioned and you'd most likely give short blasts on the horn periodically too. When working in industrial areas where personnel would be close to the track and along warehouse loading docks or doors, you'd want to ring the bell too.

Yes, in some areas, it would be pretty darn noisy to say the least, and if your engines are sound equipped, ringing the bell almost constantly could drive you to drink! But running your train down a city street, it would really make it interesting.

FCIN Wrote:...You're quite welcome - hope my answers weren't too hard to follow...

Thanks again, your answers are very clear and good to understand.

You know, iun the middle of the first reply, you hit on the 'problem' of scaling time. Why does the couple of seconds it takes to grab a sip of coffee seem to be enough time? Well, think about it. If it would take you 5 minutes in real life to walk the length of the train, in HO that train is 1/87th the size of the real train. 5 minutes in real time is 300 seconds. It would make sense that if the train is 1/87th the length of the real thing, it would take 1/87th of the time - a bit over 3 seconds! Using a fast clock at 6:1, to wait that 'scale' 5 minutes would be 50 actual seconds - and that seems too long. Because it is.

--Randy

Randy,Some times it takes longer then 5 minutes to walk a train,unlock and line a switch-especially in the winter..

50 seconds isn't really that long when you trying to emulate prototype operations-that's a tad faster then comparing waybill/car cards to the number on the freight car. :o .

Prototypical operation isn't for everyone or for the impatient-I seen members of one club I was a member of become unglued because they had to wait in a passing siding for opposing trains..After the second radio "178 to Cincinnati District Dispatcher,why am I stopped?" I see how much longer I can hold 178 in the passing siding.

I think the issue is not the actual amount time we modelers are waiting, it is the fact not to align all the switches all over the layout from our central control panel in advance and ran with the engine all the way in one pass if the switches are manual operated. The model operations becomes a great deal more realistic if only switches are aligned that are in immediate walking distance of the cut and the cut is fully stopped while doing so.
That might be very obvious to most US model railroaders because you have a long tradition to do joined operating sessions with switchman, engineers, dispatchers etc. That enforces a more prototypical operation and newcomers learn from the older members.

Reinhard,Even with 2 brakemen and conductor it still took time especially for the "field" man to line the needed switches before we could make our shove-of course some times we would ride to the switche swing off and run ahead and line the switch and swing back on has the lead car pass.

This is why flat switching by kicking cars became the norm its faster.The conductor pulls the pin while the 2 brakeman handled the switches.

Brakie Wrote:Prototypical operation isn't for everyone ...

I would totally agree with that statement. Most of the model railroaders that I know or have met over the years have no interest whatsoever in prototype operation, but rather just like to run trains. I certainly have no problem with that.

Prototype operation isn't about adding a lot of "wait" time here and there, but rather duplicating the way a railroad really operates, even if in a simplified form. Simply operating at scale speeds and not rushing is enough to make any layout seem much larger. Time doesn't scale; a 1:87 scale train moving at a scale speed of 10mph, takes the same amount of time to cover a given distance as the 1:1 prototype does. If it would take a 1:1 switchman 5 minutes to walk from the end of a cut of cars to the locomotive, then it would take 5 actual minutes for your 1:87 switchman to walk that distance too. Sitting (or standing) with a big grin on your face, humming your favorite tune, and waiting 5 minutes for your switchman to walk to the engine, is a bit much and you'd soon tire of that.

A small ISL doesn't need to incorporate switching puzzles in its design in order to make the layout seem larger. Just following what I'd call "the basics" works just fine. Stopping to line your switches or before fouling a road crossing; spotting cars at specific locations at your industries; waiting a second or two before moving after you make a coupling and; operating at scale speeds is about all that is required. Those of us that manually uncouple our cars know that the act of uncoupling a car adds time to the operation and IMHO, makes things much more realistic.

As I've mentioned several times before, I find that just placing/pulling 4 or 5 cars at the handful of industries on my "proposed" ISL often takes 30 minutes or more and that is without having to add a lot of "wait" time here and there. If you want to add more "wait" times here and there to increase the time for an operating session, then the choice is up to you. You can have Special Instructions as the prototype does for specific industries or operations on your line that must be followed, but there is no requirement that you do so. Just following "the basics" is usually more than enough.

Ed:A small ISL doesn't need to incorporate switching puzzles in its design in order to make the layout seem larger.
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Right there is a topic heading and one that should get modelers to think outside the old worn switching layout design box and away from anything that resembles a time saver..

As many car spots as I have planed for Slate Creek I figure 40-45 minutes or using a time ratio of 15:1 3 scale hours which may be a tad to fast for the amount of work..

Brakie Wrote:Right there is a topic heading and one that should get modelers to think outside the old worn switching layout design box and away from anything that resembles a time saver..

I think that over the past couple of years, the Time Saver/switching puzzle idea as a basis for layout design is slowly beginning to fade. You need only look at some of the outstanding layout designs that have been posted on Big Blue and see the work done by the folks building them; the recent books published by Lance Mindheim and a few others and you can see the trend changing.

But at the same time there are so many "layout designers" that continue to perpetuate those concepts, that it will never really go away. I would always recommend that anyone thinking of building a switching layout read this article before they start building that layout based on the Time Saver: http://www.housatonicrr.com/timesaver.htm. Then I would recommend that folks get on a nice civil forum like Big Blue and look at the Layouts, Industries Along The Rails and Strictly Rail Operations sections for inspiration and information. Then visit a few web sites where the layouts (freelance or otherwise) are based on prototype operations and finally, spend some time looking at various real locations on Google/Bing maps before actually designing their own layout.

More than anything, it's a matter of getting the word out, and asking questions, like faraway has done. Some really interesting discussions can result from threads like this one.

I usually just count 10 Mississippi's when executing switching maneuvers. :?

Reinhard, both the LAJ and the PHL are industrial railroads in industrial areas. Where the PHL runs in the LA and Long Beach Harbors, the property is so expensive that a lot to build a shack on would probably cost over $1 million, but you could not buy property in that area so small because of the demand for industrial uses. In fact most industries not connected to the shipping industry in some way have been moved back at least a mile or two from the waterfront to allow more room for companies that need to have a dock to service ships, boats or barges. The exception is that there will be lots across the street from shipping terminals that have either "blue collar" cafes, or will have businesses that service the shipping industries.

The cities of Vernon and Commerce are both industrial cities. Vernon has a population of less than 100. The City of Commerce has a total population of 3,377 and 1,800 businesses according to their official web site. Here in the U.S. areas of cities are "zoned" (set aside) for business. The zoning may be for commercial or industrial uses. Residential zones are separate. Often times commercial zones may be on major streets with residential zones on side streets behind the commercial properties. This allows for people to live a short distance from the stores that they would patronize. Industrial zones allow for heavy industry, but may also have some commercial businesses. Most of the commercial businesses will consist of "blue collar" cafes or restaurants where workers can buy lunch, or businesses that cater to the industries in the area such as industrial hardware, wholesale electrical suppliers, etc. People don't want to live next to heavy industry, because of the noise of the heavy machinery, diesel truck traffic, and trains.

The point of this "ramble" is that the area you are modeling will have a lot of unmarked grade crossings that will be flagged by train crews. Most of those crossings will be worked at night. Most of those areas are virtually deserted after 6:00p.m. with the small businesses closed, and the only people in the area will be either industry workers on the night shift, or homeless transients. It also means that the area you are modeling can be accurate without any houses on the layout anywhere.