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I haven't built one in a long while, but have noticed the price seems to be kinda steep for what you get. I remember paying about 6-7 bucks for one of those kits, and now they seem to be twice that for just four walls and a roof.
I sort of think this is why DPM sold out to Woodland Scenics - the principal behind DPM has a new venture making similar kits. I really think the molds are getting worn out so you are seeing worse and worse quality. Eventually they will either have to retool them or scrap the line entirely.

--Randy
I have some of the older N scale kits (before WS bought the line) and some of the newer ones and there is a definate difference in the quality of the kits.The newer ones will have walls that are short both vertically and horozontally.The walls sometimes have a definate twist to them .

Not to mention the prices are outragous though this seems to be the norm for WS buildings both in kit form and ready to use.I will no longer buy the WS versions especially since there are still a lot of the origonal kits still out there.

Ok next,I'm getting off the soapbox.
If the kits don't measure up, take them back and get a refund. The LHS will take up the fight for you.

If you bought it direct, send it back.

If you accept crappy goods, you simply encourage the creation and sale of more of the same, and you become part of the problem instead of part of the solution.
MountainMan Wrote: ... If you accept crappy goods, you simply encourage the creation and sale of more of the same, and you become part of the problem instead of part of the solution.

AMEN!

As the former manager of a model railroad-oriented Hobby Shop (albeit back in the seventies) those are exactly my feelings as well!

Elsewhere on this forum I recently discussed making molds of someone else's product for other than personal use (Paige Enterprises knocking off SS Ltd.'s supurb castings) As soon as I found out about that situation, the Paige Enterprises kits came off the shelf and the whole lot of them went back to our distributor, AHM (later IHM, both operations of the late Bernie Paul in Philadephia, PA) and I let them deal with it.

Legal is legal ... quality level is quality level. If you were unhappy about how your steak was cooked in a steak house restaurant, would you shrug your shoulders and eat it anyway, or would you send it back? Same thing here!
IMHO many of the model railroad industry buy outs are not about making good products, it is eliminating the competition so prices will increase. I'm at the stage in my life where I could buy a few more locomotives or cars, but after replacing gears on many old Athearn and "lifetime guaranteed" P2Ks I think I will just install decoders in them and be done with it. Walther's bought Lifelike, and now that people need replacement parts, whether for "warranty" replacement or not they should make them available. I read somewhere that they haven't got the Life Like replacement parts unpacked. Geeze guys, it's been 5 years or better. Of course if I have a locomotive that needs a $2 part that I can't get, I'll rush an order in to Walther's for a new locomotive (not). I hope they don't hold their breath.
Charlie B Wrote:IMHO many of the model railroad industry buy outs are not about making good products, it is eliminating the competition so prices will increase. I'm at the stage in my life where I could buy a few more locomotives or cars, but after replacing gears on many old Athearn and "lifetime guaranteed" P2Ks I think I will just install decoders in them and be done with it. Walther's bought Lifelike, and now that people need replacement parts, whether for "warranty" replacement or not they should make them available. I read somewhere that they haven't got the Life Like replacement parts unpacked. Geeze guys, it's been 5 years or better. Of course if I have a locomotive that needs a $2 part that I can't get, I'll rush an order in to Walther's for a new locomotive (not). I hope they don't hold their breath.

I'll have to disagree. The buyouts seldom have anything to do with prices, or product quality for that matter. Buyouts in model railroad production are almost always about expanding your offerings without having to go through the complete product development cycle.

Unfortunately, quality almost always goes downhill immediately after a buyout. If the previous owner had any inkling he was getting out of or selling his business, the remaining good stock is sold off. The new owner doesn't want to move all the remaining stock if it can be avoided. And selling off remaining good stock has the highest profit margin. The molds and tooling typically do not get the extra work they need to be ready for the next run of an item. So the new owner gets a couple of truck loads of unusable parts, molds and tooling that need refurbishing, and probably a busted supply chain for the components that went into the acquired product. The parts, and everything else have to be sorted and stored, which is a fair amount of labor for the 2-3 person companies that are typical of model railroad production.

Restarting production in a new location is not simply turning on a switch. In most cases, a year or two later, quality and quantity are back to where they were before the sale. But that year or two is brutal.

As for Walthers buying out Life-Like, Walthers had to make the purchase for self-preservation after Horizon Hobbies got both Athearn and MDC. Horizon Hobbies distributes their own product, which cut Walthers out of a good chunk of their distributorship business. Remember, that when Walthers bought Life-Like, Life-Like had 2 product lines - the acclaimed Proto 2K and the junk train set level stuff that was mostly produced from old Varney molds and tooling. The Proto 2K was/is produced in China, with the same set of rules that apply to all the Chinese plastic importers - batch run with minimal (if any) spare parts provisioning. For Chinese production, the importer rents a slot in the production line to produce, say 3,000 items, from one of a handful of Chinese manufacturers. The manufacturer orders the components like motors and gears and wheels, with just enough extra to cover defects uncovered during assembly. The importer holds back a small percentage of finished product to settle warranty claims. So I doubt very much Walthers has a bunch of Proto 2K parts waiting to be discovered.

To get replacement gears for the defects that have happened with various Chinese products is not a simple chain either. First, the cause of the defect has to be analyzed and found. For cracked gears, it has normally been too tight a fit on the shaft that caused the gears to eventually crack after the plastic shrank. Bachmann and Roundhouse have had the opposite problem with their Chinese gears - too loose a fit that causes the gear to slip on the shaft under load. Apparently, production tolerances are very small to maintain the correct fit over time as plastic shrinks ever so slightly.

Anyway, once the problem is found, a new of set of gears must be ordered and manufactured with a slightly larger (or smaller) bore. Or a different gear material with less shrinkage must be used.

Of course, conspiracy theories make for better reading and ranting.

Fred W
Coming from a design and development background and as a consequence, having a better than average understanding of manufacturing (albeit not to the extent of a manufacturing guy) I'd have to come down on Fred W.'s side on this one.

There is alot more to bring a product to market than the majority of the general public knows. It is the stuff of long days (no "overtime" as a owner or salaried guy,) lots of coffee, eating on the run and general anxiety. Now throw a change of hands of the product line into the mix and you find yourself buying Rolaids by the carton! Include business upheaval that may involve a move of the tooling, finding a new molder who has a.) the capability of running your tooling and b.) a slot in their production schedule that will accomodate your needs. Add to that locating the necessary amount of warehousing space in your vicinity and possibly hiring a couple of part-timers (you hope are trustworthy) to operate the warehousing, packaging and shipping of the new product line.

There is often an air bubble in the "product availablility pipeline," along with some "sludge" (inferior quality parts) while the whole transition of ownership/regional location thing happens. Depending on funding, manufacturing knowledge and manpower, It can take time to get it all running again smoothly ... and production (and therefore availablity of product) may become "Limited."

Take for instance Scale Structures Ltd., Durango Press, Sequoia and a couple other small operations that specialized in fairly high quality soft metal castings. They each disappeared from the scene for a while and then reappeared in limited availabilty from a couple very small family-run operations. Some of these product lines were split up, with cast detail parts going to one small producer and cast vehicle kits going to another. It can get confusing.

If the product line is a viable one and there is demand, the product and the repair parts will resurface. It may not be real pretty as new owners scramble to make it happen, but in time. the dust will settle.
Prior to the Walthers buyout I never had any problem getting P2K spare parts - either Life Like had them made or all Chinese production is NOT this way. Seems harder than ever to get after Walthers took over - starting with the "no receipt, no parts" policy which ties right in with Walthers refusing to enter into distribution agreements unless you have a fully incorporated business. The small guys who sell at train shows have mostly been reduced to selling only those things they can still get - apprantly Horizon will sell to them, and Atlas, since they are still independent. All this supposedly to 'save' the LHS from undercutting Internet retailers, but at the same time, Walthers expects participating dealers to honor the prices in those sales flyers they send out - no matter if when the dealer purchased the inventory, he paid more than Walthers wants him to sell it for.
Couple this with the prices (MSRP anyway) of P2K locos going through the roof. Pushing $500 now for AB sets of E units with sound, and they don;t both have sound decoders in them for that price.
And add in that is you should happen to need something directly from Walthers, you will be charged an insane amount for shipping, and then have to wait while it comes by the slowest shippign method they can find, or you can pay an extra $5 on top of what you already paid for shipping to have them sent is USPS Priority. It's liek those rip off artists on eBay who charge you $10 for shipping and when you receive it you see the postage on the box is $3. Your alternative is to find a hobby shop that will still order for you (I know of a few, so it's not that hard) and then wait. ANd wait. And wait some more. Because Walthers charges THEM the crazy shipping too, so they wait until they have enough orders to jusify the cost. Once upon a time, Walthers was greatly needed and provided a much needed service to this hobby. What they've become today is not in that same spirit. The small one man operations need some sort of buffer that a distrubtor provides. Large volume producers really don't - the added layer only adds extra cost for someone to move the item around in a warehouse, in oen door and out another. Walthers seems to get a pass no matter what they do, because they were there at the beginning. It used to be possible to vote with your wallet - don;t liek something, or somebody's practice? Don't buy their product. But when nearly anythign you'd want to use is exclsuively distributed by a single entity like Walthers or Horizon, it comes down to putting up with it or getting out of the hobby. Horizon at least seems to be very content to let Athearn run as a pseudo-independent company. Walthers seems to have put a tight rein on Life-Like.

--Randy
When William K. Wathers started that company, he was a hobbiest who put together a distributorship to help other hobbiest get what they needed and at a reasonable price. Then his son ran the company and things changed somewhat - he was a business guy, but still interested in the hobby.

Now his son (or daughter, I forget which) runs the company. He (or she) is a businessman, pure and simple. I doubt the've ever built a kit or turned a throttle knob. It's all about business, grow by stepping on the competition, even though in many cases they are stepping on their own distribution arms.

The main problem with business in America today is that it is run primarily by Finance guys. They only know the bottom line ... most of them are clueless as to how the bottom line got to be the way it is. They know nothing of design, development, partnering with supplying vendors, supporting the distribution channels, the "lower price = higher volume = greater profits" mentality ... they just look at the bottom line and increase the price to achieve a higher profit, much like the clowns in Washington, D.C. who always want to raise taxes, because it would never occur to them that the problem might be not lack of income but too much spending for the income level! Nope
Having gotten into the craftsman kit business...although not yet selling product...I'll add my 2 cents.

I am in the process of launching a resin kit business. I do not know how much of a market exists for my parts, and I'm certain to have issues with parts since they are craftsman kits...how many manufacturers have gotten out of the kit business primarily because of the labor and hassle caused by sending out a single $1 part?

My first kit is a 23' 1872 flatcar (3' gauge...On30 or On3). It will come with a one piece deck, three brake levers, a brake chain roller, int sills inserts, and a frame. The modeler will need to choose trucks, couplers, a brake wheel, and decals. They must wash all of the parts and then clean them up prior to assembly. The process is the same with my passenger car kits, except there are many more parts.

Step 1, I had to choose a prototype
Step 2, I had to verify the accuracy of the car's drawings
Step 2a, get permission to use Grandt Line NBW's in the masters
Step 3, determine the car bolster height needed for use with either On30 or On3 trucks
Step 4, built the masters
Step 5, QAQC the masters
Step 6, Develop a strategy for producing the molds (part lines and such) and order the necessary materials (It's taken me 5 silicone rubbers and 3 resins to have sufficiently consistent quality)
Step 7, create the molds
Step 8, make any QAQC changes needed for the molds
Step 9, learn how to cast the parts (this varies with every mold)
Step 10, assemble and paint pre-production versions for QAQC purposes
Step 11, write instructions
Step 12, order boxes
Step 13, order any parts or materials from other suppliers needed to complete the kits
Step 14, produce a stockpile of parts, verifying that they are coming out with an acceptably low number of flaws.
Step 15, determine what it cost me to produce each kit and then add cushion for replacement parts and profit (a big deal considering the time I lose from my own modeling pursuits)
Step 16, market the kits
Step 17, sell the kits...not knowing if I can expect to sell a couple dozen or a couple hundred.
Step 18, prepare for calls/letters for modelers regarding parts, assembly instructions, paint not sticking because they didn't follow my instructions, and such
Step 19, if I sell out, decide if there is sufficient demand to justify the time and money required to produce new molds.

My flat car requires 3 molds. My Oahu Railway coach requires around 15-20 molds.

Additionally, since I'm doing everything in house, I don't have to coordinate with pattern makers and casters as many cottage industry suppliers do.

I'm under the impression that replacing locomotives is usually cheaper than fixing them...for the costs in labor to stock all of the parts and be able to swap them out is usually higher than replacing the entire engine. Certain parts do seem to be acceptably easy to replace (such as trucks or locomotive drivers) and so they are sometimes available (I've purchased drivers from both BLI and B-man in the past 3 years)

For large shippers, I fully understand why they charge more for shipping than UPS. It takes only slightly less labor to pack a pair of Kadee couplers as it takes to pack a hundred packs of Kadee couplers. The additional effort (cost) to determine the exact postage (and packaging and labor) is best avoided by setting a flat rate.
Actually it's the grandkids now at Walthers. Grandson Phil is the one who went mad with the expansion since he took over.

--Randy
Unfortunately, I don't think Walthers had much choice in the changeover from distributor to importer. The manufacturer/distributor/LHS model has been and is dying. With the loss of Athearn and Roundhouse lines, and the remaining large importers (Atlas, BLI, Bachmann) selling direct to the large retailers at very close to the same price Walthers pays, the handwriting was on the wall. Only the small LHS buying onsies and twosies still buy their major stock (such as plastic locomotives) from Walthers and other distributors. Then they have to sell at full retail for the business model to work. Walthers, as a distributor, is increasingly stuck distributing and warehousing slower-moving inventory from the cottage manufacturers.

Business models have to continue to change as the world changes. Shipping costs have gone up dramatically within the US as the taxpayer subsidies for the US Postal Service (and parcel post) have disappeared. FedEx and UPS have both had to raise prices to stop the red ink. Other freight companies have simply gone out of business.

I'd love to see even 10% of the rants go in a positive direction by investing even a small but serious amount (to them) in their chosen model railroading manufacturer/importer. Get some skin in the game, and then your "solutions" and "shoulds" have a little more validity. It's just like (especially on some other forums) folks telling you all about what's right or wrong with a given method for layout building - and then you find out they have never built even one layout in their life, much less used the method discussed.

just my thoughts
Fred W
From the voice of understanding business and business models (a different kinds of model, one written on paper), Fred W. has hit the nail squarely on its head.

The world economy is in a state of flux (no, not the GERN type of flux,) all sorts of things are changing, the dollar is weak, little is actually manufactured here ... it's a very weird time to be in business.

But Fred is right ... before you complain too loudly, make sure you have some "skin in the game."

It's all too easy to berate a company for shortcomings in their product, but do you know the background of why that shortcoming came to exist? Unless you are familiar with, as Michael nkp_174 explained, all that's involved in bringing a product to market. And it gets tougher the larger the company gets, as there is more money involved, more employees to pay as well as more individuals in the decision-making chain (not to mention the shareholders, those everyday folks with money invested in the company, "skin in the game," who are expecting the company to turn a profit so they can realize a dividend and grow their investment to make some money to fund their own retirement!) It ain't easy making it all happen and having it all happen flawlessly!

Oh, and now the Union wants a new contract, or their going to "walk."

Please pass the Excedrin, and let me have a handful of Rolaids, too!.

It takes a little inventiveness, almost like kit-bashing, but those kits with quality problems can be make up into nice models.
It's just not as easy as it would have been if everything was neat and tidy.
I worked retail for a number of years. Some of the Model railroad manufacturers have lost site of the fact that customer service is what keeps them in business.
There are a great number of folks in this business that do care. MRC, BLI, Bowser, and Branchline are some that have given me great service with warranty, missing parts or upgrades. Wholesale trains, M B Klein, Trainworld and Litchfield Station are dealers I can highly recommend, and I have one hobby shop that is only 20 miles away that has a good stock of small parts that are priced reasonably.(his personality is lousy which is a minus)
I know that everyone has problems at times. It is the folks that handle the problems well that get the repeat business. Some of the bigger players figure they can fluff off the problems because they still have lots of folks willing to make excuses for them. No mater what excuse, poor service is poor service.
Folks that get good service tell 1 person, folks that get bad service tell 10.
As for "Skin in the game" I bought in when I bought their product.
Charlie
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