I have watched switching operations for the last 20 years and the brakeman uses a radio to communicate with the engineer. But what about in steam era? I only know of one practice of how an engineer knew when he was clear a crossing on a main line. He knew how many cars he had and knew land marks for train length. But what about in a yard or spotting a car in a curved track? Someone had to say stop some way when vision is blocked.
Hand signals or whistle signals.
"Workin' with the Air..." - with and without the cabin...Bob C.
Bob C Wrote:"Workin' with the Air..." - with and without the cabin...Bob C.
Do you mean opening an air valve to cause a pressure loss?
Lester Perry Wrote:Bob C Wrote:"Workin' with the Air..." - with and without the cabin...Bob C.
Do you mean opening an air valve to cause a pressure loss?
Yes,the conductor would reduce the air by taping once or twice-no unsafe lost of air.On passenger trains their was a communication cord in each passenger car...Today the conductor/brakeman needs to "work the air" while making a shove-not sure how that works with the "A" end of the car as lead in the shove..Thankfully we didn't have to do that-imagine riding the last car on a high mounted brake platform.
Just because we had radios there was no guarantee we would use them all the time.Even when I worked on the C&O under Chessie/CSX(78-84) we still used hand signals.
A side note about whistle signals..We never use 'em during switching moves unless we cross a public crossing.You see the local citizenry frowned on constant whistle use,there may have been whistle ordinances and special instructions in the ETT.
As a ps on hand signals..There was several signals that isn't in the book..A taping on top of the head meant to slack ahead-tapping the fanny meant "slack back".A extended arm with hand down while making a circle was a signal that the brakeman/conductor was going in between the cars or into the bushes to relieve his self.
Brakie Wrote:...A side note about whistle signals..We never use 'em during switching moves unless we cross a public crossing.You see the local citizenry frowned on constant whistle use,there may have been whistle ordinances and special instructions in the ETT....
I assume the whistle signals have been used intensive in much earlier times when the train needs rear protection without ABS etc.
I've never thought about that. So let's assume the engine is shoving a cut of cars into a spur, and they have to be spotted precisely at a loading dock. I am assuming there has to be a spotter at the end of the cut of cars, and needs to signal to the engineer when to stop. Given things like bad weather, darkness, and curves and view blocks (other buildings and vegetation), you are saying the conductor would ride along the end of the car and open a valve on the brake line to signal the engineer to stop? I suppose in certain situations they could have used multiple visual spotters to relay a signal.
I guess knowing this changes how some of us pre-radio modelers should operate our switching moves. When I back a trailer with a car, I have someone standing in view telling me when to stop. So, when I am switching my layout, I need to think about how the engineer can know where to stop when spotting cars.
Brakie Wrote: ... On passenger trains their was a communication cord in each passenger car...
Back when I rode the Pennsy MP54 MU cars in and out of Philly daily on the Paoli Local, the conductor would signal the motorman when everone had gotten off and on with two short toots on a whistle activated by a cord in the vestibule. (When the "new" Silverliners appeared, the whistle had been repaced with a buzzer.)
We used to joke with new neighbors about getting up from your seat and starting down the aisle towards the vestibule as the train left the station prior to yours. Since the stations are often no more than a mile or two apart, if you waited to get up from your seat until the train pulled into your stop, if there was no one waiting on the station platform for the train, the conductor, as he hung out to look, seeing no one on the platform and no one in the vestibule waiting to get off, would double-pull the cord before a complete stop was achieved. We jokingly called it a "pause," where upon you got to get off at the next station.
Schedule was schedule back then. Time waiting at one station for a group of passengers to get off and on was made up by only "pausing" at stations where there was no one getting on or off.
nachoman Wrote:I've never thought about that. So let's assume the engine is shoving a cut of cars into a spur, and they have to be spotted precisely at a loading dock. I am assuming there has to be a spotter at the end of the cut of cars, and needs to signal to the engineer when to stop. Given things like bad weather, darkness, and curves and view blocks (other buildings and vegetation), you are saying the conductor would ride along the end of the car and open a valve on the brake line to signal the engineer to stop? I suppose in certain situations they could have used multiple visual spotters to relay a signal.
I guess knowing this changes how some of us pre-radio modelers should operate our switching moves. When I back a trailer with a car, I have someone standing in view telling me when to stop. So, when I am switching my layout, I need to think about how the engineer can know where to stop when spotting cars.
In my railroad days the rear brakeman would attend the spotting of the cars while the head brakeman attended the switch and make the needed uncoupling.
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Given things like bad weather, darkness, and curves and view blocks (other buildings and vegetation), you are saying the conductor would ride along the end of the car and open a valve on the brake line to signal the engineer to stop?
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Not always..There would be no need to "work the air" when shoving a pickup back to a train-more often then not we would kick the car(s) back to the train anyway.On longer shoves the conductor would ride the last cat protecting the shove and would apply the air in a emergency .For a normal stop he would radio or signal the engineer when to stop.For night signaling we used our Starlight lanterns or a fusee.
As far s the view being block it was not unusual for a brakeman to ride the roof walk of car next to the engine in order to relay hand signals.Some times the fireman would help relay the signals by leaning out of the cab door..
Switching is not a game of speed or the numbers of moves require to complete the work.
When I was a student brakeman a old line PRR conductors offered up these words of wisdom.
"Son,Plan your work and work your plan,never make unnecessary moves or move a car you don't have to and never get your cabin in front of your face".
So,a slow count to 10 should give you enough scale time for the brakeman or conductor to do his work.
faraway Wrote:Brakie Wrote:...A side note about whistle signals..We never use 'em during switching moves unless we cross a public crossing.You see the local citizenry frowned on constant whistle use,there may have been whistle ordinances and special instructions in the ETT....
I assume the whistle signals have been used intensive in much earlier times when the train needs rear protection without ABS etc.
With CTC and block signals there is no need to protect the train by flag unless your written orders called for flag protection..Then there was steps to be taken to include dropping a fuse between the rails 1/4 mile from the stop and the flagman had to be at least 1,000 feet from the train.The only time I ever flagged I was "called in" by radio.The reason I was flagging is our train went into emergency and there was another train following us in the same block.Of course he saw me waving a "washout" stop with a lighted fuse..He stopped where I was standing and ask want happen?
With old ready Freddy I'm not sure how they handle that unless its by radio.
Brakie Wrote:...With CTC and block signals...
Brakie, sorry I was not more specific when I wrote "much earlier time". I mean the time when the timetable and the watch have been enough to run the RR operation. No CTC and no blocks. Just the crew and an order.
faraway Wrote:Brakie Wrote:...With CTC and block signals...
Brakie, sorry I was not more specific when I wrote "much earlier time". I mean the time when the timetable and the watch have been enough to run the RR operation. No CTC and no blocks. Just the crew and an order.
Yeah,flags and whistles was very important during that time.In fact there was a sixth man on most crews called a flagman.It was his job to protect the rear of the train while the crew went about their work.
I think I remember reading somewhere that the crews would use lanterns to signal when switching after dark.
P5se Camelback Wrote:Brakie Wrote: ... On passenger trains their was a communication cord in each passenger car...
Back when I rode the Pennsy MP54 MU cars in and out of Philly daily on the Paoli Local, the conductor would signal the motorman when everone had gotten off and on with two short toots on a whistle activated by a cord in the vestibule. (When the "new" Silverliners appeared, the whistle had been repaced with a buzzer.)
We used to joke with new neighbors about getting up from your seat and starting down the aisle towards the vestibule as the train left the station prior to yours. Since the stations are often no more than a mile or two apart, if you waited to get up from your seat until the train pulled into your stop, if there was no one waiting on the station platform for the train, the conductor, as he hung out to look, seeing no one on the platform and no one in the vestibule waiting to get off, would double-pull the cord before a complete stop was achieved. We jokingly called it a "pause," where upon you got to get off at the next station.
Schedule was schedule back then. Time waiting at one station for a group of passengers to get off and on was made up by only "pausing" at stations where there was no one getting on or off.
And it works Exactly the same way today too.. A "Flag stop" is a station (Like my town) where the train comes to a rolling stop, just like a car at a stop sign, and then continues to the next station. That makes up for the stations where it takes more than a minute to load/unload passengers.
The time tables are set that it takes about 90 seconds to 2 minutes to:
Leave a station, move to the next station (1 mile away), Load/Unload. After the load/unload is complete, the next cycle starts.
If a station has someone who needs extra attention and/or extra time to get on the train, the time has to be made up somewhere. It's amazing how this stuff works.