Warning, light at the end of the tunnel may be approaching rant!


Sometimes this hobby makes me feel really alone. The community here is awesome, and I don't mean it towards you guys (I know no one here is like the following), but sometimes its frustrating.

I occupy a niche of a niche of a niche- I enjoy electrified railroads, and the niche within, electric commuter operations. And I'm 21.

The part that frustrates me is that electric railroads and commuter trains really ARE a small niche. I have only met a handful of modelers who actually will follow through with that sort of prototype, and a few more who at the very least, know what I'm talking about when i say the word "Silverliner". Most Modeling I encounter appears to either Transition Era or relatively recent, and that's great, I'm familiar with it all. People can discuss such stuff ad nauseum. However, whenever I'm just looking to talk about an MU car or an E33 electric or whatever, I encounter glossy eyes and blank stares.

I don't expect people to be interested (its unreasonable and silly to expect such, and besides i haven't done anything interesting for months now), but after a while, it throws me through a loop. I've got almost no one to talk to, no one to ask questions, few to share with. Electrified railroads and commuter operations are almost never featured in model railroading magazines, and when they are, its like some unsatisfying little article that only just touches on the bare bones basics. You would think even on this big world wide web that I'd find something, but i've already joined many Commuter modeling groups and am active on forums where such things are discussed, yet i still find it irritatingly devoid of anyone to really discuss things with.

I think the worst part is, that my niches also appears to attract the more "unusual" members of the modeling crowd. I have been to some "commuter/transit" shows, and have actually had people tell me "Thank god you're normal". I can't say that these people are wrong. A large portion of the attendees to that show did not appear all there. I mean no ill will towards anyone of that nature (and i do feel like a jerk putting it so bluntly), but you can understand why it is difficult to talk to them or have any meaningful conversations. It also hovers above my head like a dark cloud, as the trend is not lost on other people.

The Young people in my age range also are quite a collection of people. Once again, the "Thank god you're normal" is whispered to me at some shows. I can only thank god that i get along well with the older crowd. Still, i've only met in person THREE model railroaders in my age range (early 20s, late teens) who i could hold a real conversation with.

I suppose its bad enough when non-model railroaders poke fun at the Toy trains (this doesn't bother me for the most part), but even within the hobby, it feels like its just me sometimes.

The vast majority of modelers that I have met in person seem to be a bit "not all there". This is why I frequent this forum, and one or two others online, and in the real world I model at home by myself. As far as passenger ops go, I don't have a lot of space. I don't run auto racks, 5 unit intermodal cars, 89' flats, and I only have half a dozen Tuscan Red passenger cars. I don't know why, but I am also much more interested in moving freight than people. I am interested in PRR heavy electric ops, but it is a very complicated aspect of the hobby to model, with limited availability (except the GG1 of course) and catenary is very complicated to model. I therefore choose instead to model what I know.

I can tell you, though, If I had a million dollars and a warehouse I would build my dream layout. I would need to hire line crews to build all of the catenary that would be involved. It would be based in Phily, there would be heavy freight and passenger as well as commuter. And the focal point would be "30th Street" to "MANTUA" AKA "ZOO" interlocking, including the West Philadelphia Elevated line/Delaware Extension. Now THAT is... or at least was in Pennsy's prime... the epitome of electric railroading right there.

G.E.C.,

I can understand your frustrations. For decades I was the only one whom I knew who was a model railroader. I built my models at home, alone. On the occasion when I would go to a hobby shop, the people there were always friendly (although some were ... "different") but none friendly enough to strike up a conversation, get to know you and invite you over for an operating session.

Even for the two years when I managed a hobby shop in a big mall, it was so much of a job (including cutom painting and custom building for customers "on the side") that I never had time for my own model work and absolutely no social life at all (I got divorced during that period as well, making life even more solitary and putting me at risk of becoming ... "different.")

But prior to all of that, from 5th grade on, I was growing up in Wayne, PA, on the four-track Pennsy "Main Line." I saw DD-1's, P5a's, GG-1's, E-33's, E-44's and I rode the locally infamous "Red Cars," the Mp54 "rattlers," on a regular basis; every day into the city in the morning and back out at night during my freshman year in art school. I railfanned at 30th Street, 52nd Street, Zoo Tower (interlocking,) got to know the operator at Overbrook Tower and sat up there with him at night watching "the board" on many occasions, and didn't learn much about "moldy diesels" until later. I can remember being disappointed when my train from Suburban Station back out of the City in the evening would be Silverliners rather that the old Red Cars because you couldn't open the window!

Juice was King in our neck of the woods! And none of this piddling along at 20 mph ... The Broadway Limited came through Wayne station on the inside westbound track at better than 80 mph! Cool stuff! I can see the twin vortexes of loose paper and small trash following the OBS as it disappeared towards Paoli and points west in my mind's eye. The visual memory makes me smile ... it's a fond memory!

I understand your feelings ... and I have an appreciation for "things with pantographs that run under the wire." When I was in the Army and living in a barracks with 43 other guys, although model building was difficult due to space constraints and lack of non-military storage, I did manage to build two Walthers Mp54 Commuter Coaches, with pants (one powered) and I still have them (packed away in boxes.) My models and model working tools were kept in a box in the trunk of my car.

So, if you wish to discuss Juice Jacks, PM me ... I'll welcome the discussion!

Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:The part that frustrates me is that electric railroads and commuter trains really ARE a small niche. I have only met a handful of modelers who actually will follow through with that sort of prototype, and a few more who at the very least, know what I'm talking about when i say the word "Silverliner". Most Modeling I encounter appears to either Transition Era or relatively recent, and that's great, I'm familiar with it all. People can discuss such stuff ad nauseum. However, whenever I'm just looking to talk about an MU car or an E33 electric or whatever, I encounter glossy eyes and blank stares.

Not from me, you don't :-)

I have grown up with electrical trains - both electrical motor units and electrical locomotives pulling coaches, and I am still surrounded by them every single work day.

Today I took a Swedish Regina two car EMU into town (Oslo). Then walked across the platform to board a Type 69 G EMU for the short hop up to the RR station closest to my place of work, at the northern edge of Oslo.

On my way home, I took an double three-car X2000 subway set down to Oslo Central station. Got a long red at Majorstuen junction (where all the western subways meet), and arrived at Oslo Central RR station about 90 seconds late to catch the 5:09 pm back home.

I went and did some shopping for my wife, but ended up with about 15 minutes to kill at Oslo Central, waiting for the 6:09 pm train home.

Too bad I didn't have a camera. Tail end of afternoon rush hour traffic - trains were arriving and departing from all 17 tracks on Oslo Central - most of them electrics.

I saw one single diesel engine - a center cab Di 8 switcher pulling about 20 empty stakebed cars heading NE to get a new load of logs for the paper factories to the west of Oslo.

An El 14 electric engine took about 20 loaded container cars into the Oslo tunnel, heading west - probably bound for some southwestern or western city.

An El 16 electric engine took a train of B7 passenger cars southeastwards - probably bound for somewhere in Sweden.

Sleek grey futuristic looking Italian styled Type 71 four car airport express motor units were arriving or departing every 10 minutes four tracks over. When they left the station, they accelerated fast out of the with that special low pitched hum they have.

A similar looking (but in a different color) type 73 tilting regional express train was standing at the far platform - it was scheduled to leave for a city to the SE a few minutes after my train.

A number of dark red type 69 EMU commuter trains were arriving and departing in all directions - I spotted an older type 69B two car EMU coupled to a newly refurbished type 69C2 three car set, with it's new oddly bulging forehead. Many sets of type 69D flat faced three car EMU sets. A type 69G set - same type as I took in the morning on the G line northwards.

A couple of newer gray and green type 72 four car EMU sets, with their exterior shell designed by the Italian design bureau of Pininfarina, who also designed Italian racing cars.

My train arrived - another type 72 - with it's huge windows, and I boarded, sat down and looked out the window as we accelerated out of Oslo Central, and went up the hill towards the mouth of the Romerike tunnel (about 12 miles long). Nine minutes later we emerged from the tunnel at Lillestrom, and rolled in along platform 5 to take on more passengers.

The sky was turning dark blue as night was falling. The forest of catenary poles and wires were just dark shadows against the sky as we pulled out of Lillestrom and headed down the Kongsvinger branch, homewards bound.

Electric commuter ops seems just plain fun.

But for me the fun is not so much each and every train - although find those fascinating those too. But the main game is "the flow" - keeping it all running, while dealing with all kinds of problems - a train set breaking down here, maintenance there, signal problems causing reduced speed over there, handling delays, juggling buses and taxis when things go to heck in a hand basket, trying to keep running hours balanced - so you wear the trains down in a controlled way, and don't end up with too many units down for maintenance at the same time, trying to dispatch personnel so you cover all trains and won't have to cancel trains due to lack of staff, getting equipment repositioned between morning rush hour and afternoon rush hour.

It seems like a complex (and interesting) puzzle. Even for a small country where there is only a couple of million people living in the capital region. The mind boggles at the thought of handling commuter traffic into New York or Chicago :-)

Grin,
Stein

Puddlejumper Wrote:The vast majority of modelers that I have met in person seem to be a bit "not all there". This is why I frequent this forum, and one or two others online, and in the real world I model at home by myself.

I've found a few good people locally, through my club, and thats about it. The one guy was just about three years older, but got a night job and haven't seen him around (hes gotta get his train out of my way if i'm going to start on my own projects at the club. I'll probably end up moving it to a differen area, but we'll see).

I definitely stick to just a few of the forums, but sometimes the forums are the most shining examples of why it can be frustrating. There are individuals my age who i honestly thought were like, young teenagers or something, since they were all over the place. Its additionally frustrating because i rarely poke fun, and I usually just want to give helpful advice, not necessarily rivet counting, but more like painting techniques, how to make the camera take close pictures, etc. This is usually met with more frustration on both sides.

I remember one couldn't figure out how to get decals to set onto the models, so he was trying to figure out how to make metal "stencils" of logos and things. When people tried suggesting to practice the decals, and to use setting solutions, he got all inflamed insisting on going with the stencils because "decals don't work". Mind you, no one had even made a "flame" or negative comment. Eventually, we figured out that he had been doing things wrong (not wetting down the surfaceof the model, hadn't ever even tried a setting solution, etc.). Last i checked he could actually apply decals just fine, but it was an arguement just getting there.

I know a few individuals like this in person as well, and i try to work with them, but it gets hard.

Quote:As far as passenger ops go, I don't have a lot of space. I don't run auto racks, 5 unit intermodal cars, 89' flats, and I only have half a dozen Tuscan Red passenger cars. I don't know why, but I am also much more interested in moving freight than people. I am interested in PRR heavy electric ops, but it is a very complicated aspect of the hobby to model, with limited availability (except the GG1 of course) and catenary is very complicated to model. I therefore choose instead to model what I know.

I can feel your pain there, I'm lucky to have the fleet that i have. on an unrelated note, they apparently nicknamed a P5A Modifed the "Puddlejumper". Not sure if that was the reference in your handle (because i thought those little switcher steamers also had that name). just thought that was interesting.

Quote:I can tell you, though, If I had a million dollars and a warehouse I would build my dream layout. I would need to hire line crews to build all of the catenary that would be involved. It would be based in Phily, there would be heavy freight and passenger as well as commuter. And the focal point would be "30th Street" to "MANTUA" AKA "ZOO" interlocking, including the West Philadelphia Elevated line/Delaware Extension. Now THAT is... or at least was in Pennsy's prime... the epitome of electric railroading right there.

You let me know when you do, we'll have to get together for operating sessions! some people around me were planning on making a Modular NEC, but it seems to have floundered out. I'll have to go see if there is still interest in it. Maybe the key is to just start building, and then people will join in.

P5se Camelback Wrote:G.E.C.,

I can understand your frustrations. For decades I was the only one whom I knew who was a model railroader. I built my models at home, alone. On the occasion when I would go to a hobby shop, the people there were always friendly (although some were ... "different") but none friendly enough to strike up a conversation, get to know you and invite you over for an operating session.

Even for the two years when I managed a hobby shop in a big mall, it was so much of a job (including cutom painting and custom building for customers "on the side") that I never had time for my own model work and absolutely no social life at all (I got divorced during that period as well, making life even more solitary and putting me at risk of becoming ... "different.")

Yeah, i would think a hobby shop would be one of the best places to come in contact with legitimate modelers in the area, but i caan also see how you get all the other sorts as well. I know i got a few emails and things, and there was one normal local guy who had already hung catenary wires, though he used plastic stock instead of brass. I'm not sure how well its held up. Apparently, he changed his email, and while I HAD the new email, I haven't heard from the guy in a long time.

Whenever i go to protoype meets, i try to connect with the people. Some of the guys i recognize from the previous year, and they seem to get along with me pretty well.

Quote: I can remember being disappointed when my train from Suburban Station back out of the City in the evening would be Silverliners rather that the old Red Cars because you couldn't open the window!

That kinda makes me laugh. when I go into philadelphia, and i'm at Market East station, its always exciting to see some of the older Silverliners, and not the IVs (i only ever saw one test set of the newest ones in person). How times have changed, i think those Silverliner IIs are getting nearly as old as those MP54s were when they started retiring them.

Quote:I understand your feelings ... and I have an appreciation for "things with pantographs that run under the wire." When I was in the Army and living in a barracks with 43 other guys, although model building was difficult due to space constraints and lack of non-military storage, I did manage to build two Walthers Mp54 Commuter Coaches, with pants (one powered) and I still have them (packed away in boxes.) My models and model working tools were kept in a box in the trunk of my car.

So, if you wish to discuss Juice Jacks, PM me ... I'll welcome the discussion!

Ah, I have a pair of kits just like that, both unpowered. Still don't know what i'm going to do with them! Combine and Coach.

Still, i think thats is the problem i encounter, There are the few of us here who are great, but when i go to some shows and things, it seems my electrics attract the kind of people that make my head hurt. Again, i'm not trying to be mean, but i feel like amongst use Model Juice Jacks, there are a lot of "different" people and i just can't connect with any of them. I'll still talk with anyone who is friendly to me, its just hard to find good conversation.

thank god for you guys on the Gauge, lol.

steinjr Wrote:

Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:The part that frustrates me is that electric railroads and commuter trains really ARE a small niche. I have only met a handful of modelers who actually will follow through with that sort of prototype, and a few more who at the very least, know what I'm talking about when i say the word "Silverliner". Most Modeling I encounter appears to either Transition Era or relatively recent, and that's great, I'm familiar with it all. People can discuss such stuff ad nauseum. However, whenever I'm just looking to talk about an MU car or an E33 electric or whatever, I encounter glossy eyes and blank stares.

Not from me, you don't :-)

I have grown up with electrical trains - both electrical motor units and electrical locomotives pulling coaches, and I am still surrounded by them every single work day.

Today I took a Swedish Regina two car EMU into town (Oslo). Then walked across the platform to board a Type 69 G EMU for the short hop up to the RR station closest to my place of work, at the northern edge of Oslo.

On my way home, I took an double three-car X2000 subway set down to Oslo Central station. Got a long red at Majorstuen junction (where all the western subways meet), and arrived at Oslo Central RR station about 90 seconds late to catch the 5:09 pm back home.

I went and did some shopping for my wife, but ended up with about 15 minutes to kill at Oslo Central, waiting for the 6:09 pm train home.

Too bad I didn't have a camera. Tail end of afternoon rush hour traffic - trains were arriving and departing from all 17 tracks on Oslo Central - most of them electrics.

I saw one single diesel engine - a center cab Di 8 switcher pulling about 20 empty stakebed cars heading NE to get a new load of logs for the paper factories to the west of Oslo.

An El 14 electric engine took about 20 loaded container cars into the Oslo tunnel, heading west - probably bound for some southwestern or western city.

An El 16 electric engine took a train of B7 passenger cars southeastwards - probably bound for somewhere in Sweden.

Sleek grey futuristic looking Italian styled Type 71 four car airport express motor units were arriving or departing every 10 minutes four tracks over. When they left the station, they accelerated fast out of the with that special low pitched hum they have.

A similar looking (but in a different color) type 73 tilting regional express train was standing at the far platform - it was scheduled to leave for a city to the SE a few minutes after my train.

A number of dark red type 69 EMU commuter trains were arriving and departing in all directions - I spotted an older type 69B two car EMU coupled to a newly refurbished type 69C2 three car set, with it's new oddly bulging forehead. Many sets of type 69D flat faced three car EMU sets. A type 69G set - same type as I took in the morning on the G line northwards.

A couple of newer gray and green type 72 four car EMU sets, with their exterior shell designed by the Italian design bureau of Pininfarina, who also designed Italian racing cars.

My train arrived - another type 72 - with it's huge windows, and I boarded, sat down and looked out the window as we accelerated out of Oslo Central, and went up the hill towards the mouth of the Romerike tunnel (about 12 miles long). Nine minutes later we emerged from the tunnel at Lillestrom, and rolled in along platform 5 to take on more passengers.

The sky was turning dark blue as night was falling. The forest of catenary poles and wires were just dark shadows against the sky as we pulled out of Lillestrom and headed down the Kongsvinger branch, homewards bound.

I can relate to you here, the reasons i love electrics trains, and the commuter trains in particular is because of all the "life" that goes on around it. It gives me an odd feeling when i see those old PRR catenary poles. I always remember going home the midnight after christmas, and seeing Arrow III MUs on the NEC, the catenary poles barely visible against the night sky. The lighted interiors illuminate people who i assume, were also going home that night. There is a lot of stories going on in the trains every day, and its partially what attracts me to it.

There is nothing like those MUs on American rails! I think i agree, that Type 71 looks interesting. Its a shame though, in this country, the MUs look like they've seen better days, and as far as most people are concerned, they are rolling metallic boxes of junk that people can ride in. Except for those of us who lived around the wires, electric railroads really aren't a part of life here, and its just uninteresting to most.

Whats more, the variety that was once here is now being swallowed up. I took a ride on the NEC, and all it was were ALP46 locomotives (based on the German Class 101) and Bi-level cars. there were only a few MUs, and some other stuff was here or there, but otherwise it was the same ALP46-double-deck push pull trains.

Do any RC4s still run? I think they were the base locomotives for the AEM7s we have on the Northeast Corridor here. Sometimes i wonder how similar they are on the inside, despite having different body shells.

Quote:Electric commuter ops seems just plain fun.

But for me the fun is not so much each and every train - although find those fascinating those too. But the main game is "the flow" - keeping it all running, while dealing with all kinds of problems - a train set breaking down here, maintenance there, signal problems causing reduced speed over there, handling delays, juggling buses and taxis when things go to heck in a hand basket, trying to keep running hours balanced - so you wear the trains down in a controlled way, and don't end up with too many units down for maintenance at the same time, trying to dispatch personnel so you cover all trains and won't have to cancel trains due to lack of staff, getting equipment repositioned between morning rush hour and afternoon rush hour.

It seems like a complex (and interesting) puzzle. Even for a small country where there is only a couple of million people living in the capital region. The mind boggles at the thought of handling commuter traffic into New York or Chicago :-)

Grin,
Stein

I can see you like the strategy part of it all! I can't even imagine how they do it all! I know that for my modeling attempts, i eventually want to recreate the area between New York and Philadelphia, so that is going to be VERY interesting. Thank god i've managed to pick up enough of the MU kits to run such operations!

G.E.C.---hope these pictures cheer you up,taken last year on a holiday in France---not a diesel or steam engine in sight :o

The only reason I haven't modeled the Babylon branch of the Long Island Railroad, is rigging the shoes, on the trucks of my MP54s, and hand laying the outside third rail, with the rather flimsy wood "cover" that the kids liked to walk on........until it broke, and the sparks flew. That whole line is elevated now.
Board Index/mainline/traction models.........start posting there and maybe a few more people will join in. I don't think you are as alone as you might think you are. I could be very wrong, but it might be worth a try.

Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:Do any RC4s still run? I think they were the base locomotives for the AEM7s we have on the Northeast Corridor here. Sometimes i wonder how similar they are on the inside, despite having different body shells.

Sure. Our neighbors, the Swedes, still run their Rc4's - I see them every week - hauling passenger trains from Stockholm, Sweden to Oslo, Norway, and hauling freight from Sweden to Norway or the other way around.

My local railroad line runs to the town of Kongsvinger on the border with Sweden, and tracks go north from Kongsvinger to Elverum and east from Kongsvinger into Sweden, and across Sweden towards the Swedish capital of Stockholm, on the east coast of Sweden.

You can see some very nice railfanning pictures from "my" railroad line on Roy Olsen's web page:

http://trips.rool.no/kongsvingerbanen_300407
http://trips.rool.no/kongsvingerbanen_190508
http://trips.rool.no/kongsvingerbanen_210305

HIs main page is here: http://trips.rool.no/trains - lots of cool electric trains here :-)

Smile,
Stein

Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:

Puddlejumper Wrote:I can feel your pain there, I'm lucky to have the fleet that i have. on an unrelated note, they apparently nicknamed a P5A Modifed the "Puddlejumper". Not sure if that was the reference in your handle (because i thought those little switcher steamers also had that name). just thought that was interesting.

The little steam switcher is where I took the name Puddlejumper hence the B&O switcher in my avatar. I did not know that about the P5a modifieds, I think that is really neat. Might have to change my avatar now!

... And here I thought that "Puddlejumper" was a great handle for a fireman!

cn nutbar Wrote:G.E.C.---hope these pictures cheer you up,taken last year on a holiday in France---not a diesel or steam engine in sight :o

Very much appreciated! In particular, that second locomotive (the one photo left above) is VERY similar to the X996. Back during the late 1970s, Amtrak was searching for a new electric locomotive, as it was displeased with General Electric's E60CP/E60CH locomotives. Two locomotives visited the US in full Amtrak paint, an RC4 numbered X995 in 1976, and a French "CC 21003", numbered X996 in 1977. The CC 210003 was apparently already a very successful locomotive in France, and so it was tried here. Both locomotives were rebuilt to American power and standard requirements. After all this work, the X996 went from 126 pounds to 133 pounds.

The X996's stay on the Northeast Corridor was VERY brief. In the end, the suspension was two stiff for Amtrak's liking. French rails were maintained at a higher level than the Northeast corridor had been. Amtrak had little time and even less funding to fix the NEC, which had been falling apart under the Penn Central railroad until April 1st when the NEC was sold to Amtrak in the Conrail merger. The French test personel were aware of this, but no adjustment was found to relieve the problem of the stiff suspension.

Meanwhile, the RC4 had no problem on American rails, so it was chosen instead. The X996 eventually went back to France and was rebuilt back to it's original french specifications, and still rolls on French Rails today, so far as i can tell.

Here is a photo i found of the X996 Still in France before its test run in the United States. Imagine how different the NEC would look if these engines were chosen instead of the RC4?

Puddlejumper Wrote:The little steam switcher is where I took the name Puddlejumper hence the B&O switcher in my avatar. I did not know that about the P5a modifieds, I think that is really neat. Might have to change my avatar now!

Yup P5A, # 4267 was the puddle jumper!

Green_Elite_Cab!
Several weeks ago you questioned how to do catenary work.
Electric traction is here in Germany not uncommon, in fact about 70% of the network is electrified.
In former times i build overhead wires and catenary myself, there is some experience, knowledge and skills.
On my friend's layout we're just raising the wire. So i made a couple of photos to show how we errect the overhead catenary.
I thought you will have interest to it, so i posted the links to messrs. Sommerfeldt and Viessmann, both H0 catenary manufacturers, and asked if you were interessted. Got no feed back from you. You did a very good job building the poles and masts for the catenary and i am the opinion you have the skills to do the complete work, but i can't prevent you to invent the wheel again. It is your choice.


Lutz