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Hi,

I recently came upon a rare picture of a locomotive specifically built by MLW to work on wharves at Quebec City. At least, two of them were 0-6-0 with slope tender. It was built in the 1910s.

[Image: QHC-3.jpg]

Among all models easily found on the market, all USRA-based models are a no-go. I found that the old Roundhouse 0-6-0 switcher was very, very, very similar in both look, proportion and details. It would be a great candidate for bashing and redetailling. Also, I like the all metal construction that make it a good puller.

I would like to know if making it DCC would be relatively easy and if sound could be incorporated in it... (the tender is so tiny!) Can it be upgraded to modern standard and still be a good engine at slow speed? Would you suggest a remotoring? I'm aware I should put a lot of work on it, but if it can save me a lot of troubles.

I suspect this project could easily turn into a frankeinstein thing! If you know of other suitable plastic engines, let me know.

@Lutz: I've seen in some topic here your reworked this engine. Were you satisfied with the results?

Thanks!

Matt
Other question: Is it me or CNR 0-6-0 class 0-19-a built by ALCO for GTR in 1919 was a USRA clone? They were scrapped around 1956. If any of you has pictures of it to confirm this info.

The Walthers Proto 0-6-0 would have made a nice model for that purpose.

Thank you!

Matt

***EDIT*** Found my answer and found pictures too... CNR diagrams were a little bit misleading. These engines were under Grand Trunk name until they were sold...
Matt, the O-19-a locos were true USRA locos, not clones. The Grand Trunk (Eastern Lines) got five from Alco's Cooke Works, and Grand Trunk Western received five from Schenectady Works.

Wayne
Hello Matt!

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Do you mean this engine? This is the later version with plastic body.

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I own an really very old all diecast model too. The gear ratio of the diecast is 1:35 and for the plastic is 1:70. As delivered both have open frame Pittmann motors.

The prototype was, i am not a SP crack, a Southern Pacific switcher built by ALCO. It must be an older series with inner Stephenson valve gear and slide valves.
The plastic shelled model was those which i rebuilt to modern standards.
In short terms technically:
- remove open frame motor, it is a decoder killer
- replace it with an coreless coil motor (Faulhaber, Maxon, Escap, etc.)
- make a new motor cradle, the motor could be mounted horizontal and can simple glued onto cradle and frame
- make shure the gear mesh will be correct. The trick with a piece of thin paper stripe between worm and wormgear will work well here.
- if the loco will be run with DCC only, a flywheel is not really necessary
- NO CHANCE to current pick up problems!
- for this polarity of loco and tender should be the same
- make wipers for loco wheels, i did it for first and second axle wheels
- make wipers for all tender wheels, don't let spoil your switching fun by problems with bad pick up
- for lighting purposes i mounted 3mm warm-whithe LEDs and the necessary resitors for each LED
- loco and tender are permanently coupled
- at least 6 wires are connecting loco and tender: 2 for current pick up, 2 for motor, 2 for LED
- build a NMRA 8-pin socket into the tender so so can choose the decoder you want and replace in an easy manner
- insulated Kadee coupler boxes

How i have done that:

[Image: dsc053527io1u.jpg]
Loco pick ups.

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Tender pick ups.

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Inside of the tender. My Roundhouse 0-6-0 has no sound, so this brass tender of similar seize is an example.
A Tsunami 750 Small Steam decoder, a 3/4" speaker and the corresponding baffle kit. At the right side in this photo is the NMRA 8-pin socket and plug. I wrapped it with tape because an all brass environment is prone for short circuits Wink
Left there is in this case a mini socket with 12 poles. Only 7 are used for connection to the loco.This may not be necessary if loco and tender are permanently coupled.
Here was enough space to make a small baffle with low profile and mount the decoder atop.

For optical look.
A lot you can see on the photos.
As the coreless coil motor is much smaller as the open frame pendant, it was possible the make an cab interior:
- the part of the boiler reaching into the cab
- boiler backhead
- cab floor
- fire box sides to hide motor and close the gap between firebox and frame
- bridge between loco and tender
All was simply made out of styrene sheet. Even the open cab doors were made out of it.
This was my first attempt to rebuilt an US loco. Simply because there are no plstic or die cast models of those older switchers on the market.
Big steamers, no problem, nearly every well known model was realized in plastic.
But small switchers? No Sir, only the Roundhouse or you have to go into the brass market.
So it was my choose to rebuilt this really antique Roundhouse model.

Further optical improvements:
It is your choice how much "brassified" you will go until you are satisfied.
In my case here are virtually no lost wax parts. I reamed my scratch box and recycled everthing suitable.
Done:
- brake shoes
- frame structure
- brake cylinders
- cooling coil, soldered by do it yourself
- air tanks
- roof hatch
- extended cab roof
- grab irons and hand rails
- check valves (scratch built)
- plumbing out of brass wire
- converting the oil bunker to coal bunker
- self made front and rear lights, aluminium tube with 3mm LEDs inside and plastic ends.

At least it was a low budget rebuilt.

Was i satisfied?
Yes, it is a real joy to do switching duties with this loco. The Faulhaber motor with flywheel in connection with the 70:1 gear did not and under no circumstances exceed the yard limit. An ESU Lokpilot Basic is fitted with the CV 3 (acceleration rate) set on maximum and the CV 4 (brake rate) also to an high grade.
Watch the loco accelerating from standing to max. speed in about 40 seconds. And the max. speed is yard limit 15mph (CV 5 is set at maximum) Big Grin
Those guy who are accoustomed to toy train acceleration (o - 100 mph in immediateley) get really nuts with this little engine.
This is only what for gourmets.

Hope i could help you.

Lutz

Edit: Orthography
Lutz! Great tutorial! You gave me hope!

It's exactly the model I was looking forward. My prototype is MLW, who often used ALCO design in Canada, it's probably why both have similarities.

I would feel bad to bash a brass loco! Though I know our good Doc doesn't mind that kind of surgery! Anyway, brass or MDC, both will major mechanical overhaul.

You said you used the modern plastic version.I guess all modifications you did are also possible with the all-metal 50s version. According to your tutorial, gear ration was different between the all-metal and the palstic version?

Matt
********** VS DCC/Sound

With ALL DCC conversions, the first best thing to do is isolate the motor frame from the locomotive, and direct wire both motor brushes to the decoder.
Some motors have a frame that is isolated from both brushes, but so many, especially the older open frame motors, use the frame as one of the electrical contacts. ( pretty much a guarantee of DCC "shorts" )

In this picture, the modifications of a Roundhouse 0-6-0 to a Baldwin 2-4-2. My plans are to use a small can motor in the
"tiny little tender", coupling it to the gearbox with a short "cup and ball" universal shaft.
[attachment=11993]
That tender is the same size and style as the one on my B&O C-16, 0-4-0. Two of the four C-16's were converted to C-16a, 0-4-0T, which was oil fired, for use on the docks.
Switchers, were usually operated fairly close to their water/fuel supply, so they could get a way with smaller tenders, and the slope back tenders provided greater visibility, when coupling/uncoupling.
Matt!

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The newer plastic version has an additional stepped idler gear. You can see it here. Module is 0.4

The older metal version lacks this. So the gear ratio is only 1:35. The module here is 0.3.

In my opinion 1:35 is a good ration for switching. Most of the better brass models of switchers have an similar ratio.
You can also buy an complete new gearbox from NWSL. But when using their 1:36 gearbox take care of clearances below the gearbox especially in conclusion with small diameter drivers. You have to remove some material from the lower gearbox cover in some circumstances.

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In this case i replaced the original brass gear by an NWSL 1:36 direct gearbox.
Because of the small drivers of the USRA 0-8-0 i had to reuse the old gearbox cover.
And still some grinding on the lower bottom had to be done to make clearance of grade crossings.

I think if you have an good decoder and a good motor you can use the NWSL 1:28 gearbox. Much fewer stress to fit it.

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This may be an example how you could rebuilt your Roundhouse 0-6-0 drivetrain. By using a new gearbox. The difficulty here is to make clearance inside the die cast frame for the gearbox. A lot of milling / grinding /filing is necessary.

The other and perhaps more easier possibilty is to fit a 0.3 module worm direct onto the motor shaft. NWSL has also different worms on their offers.
The difficulty here is to make the correct mesh between worm and wormgear.

Lutz
Thanks Lutz and Sumpter!

That will be useful some day. Motors and electricity are place where I rarely venture in this hobby. I feel like I'll have to try my hand at it soon if I want to make want I want.

Thinking about it cost wise, I think maybe an old Southern Pacific 0-6-0 brass engine could be a good start for this project. If your had all the brass details to add to the MDC shell, fells like cost will be rather similar. Both will need the same mechanical upgrade and one is easier to work with and already more detailled... and I almost swore I would never go brass!

Matt
sailormatlac Wrote:... and I almost swore I would never go brass!

Matt
Me too!
But sometimes it is inevitable if you want a particularly engine.

Lutz
I continued my exploration about 0-6-0. I found out CN class O-12-a could be easily bashed from a USRA design. To verify that, I compared dimensionnal data from a recent Bachmann 0-6-0 (the toy train version) and the prototype locomotive diagram (http://cnlines.ca/CNcyclopedia/loco/diagrams/o-12-a.jpg).

Surprisingly, it fits quite right if you shorten the boiler a little bit. I used a Bachmann Consolidation cab from my junk box. Almost a perfect match according to old pictures on CNRphotos:

[Image: main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_it...alNumber=2]

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Here's the result. In gray is the original Bachmann engine. I didn't locate details as much have to be redone.

[Image: CNR0-6-0O-12-a.jpg]

However, the tender must be built from scratch. Big deal! Icon_lol

The only thing that bothers me is the quality of recent non-Spectrum steamers... it would feel bad to bash a P2K locomotive for this bash!

Matt
Rethinking about it, I'm quite thrilled to tackle the CNR 0-6-0 project at this point.

Question: It may sounds funny, but most of my steam locomotive projects are stalled for stanchions (handrail posts) shortage. I've been looking for them for months but most online shops are out of stock for short ones. It's getting really annoying to think models aren't completed because of such a trifle. Nope I've scavenged everything I could from defunct steamers. I'm remember a guy who told me he waited years to finish specfic locomotives because he waited for parts.

Any idea were I could get them? And in good quantity?

Other questions:

[Image: Question1.jpg]

1) What is this structure on the tender? Doesn't look like a water hatch to me.

2) Lots of piping under the cab. What is it. Also, what is the use of the pipes running under the cab and runningboard (not the coil for the air pump)?

3) The steam generator seems to be connected to some valve with an handle. If you look on the cab front, you'll see some pipes and things near the window...

4) What's this valve? It's name, it's use...

5) I guess they are pop valves. However, one seems to be muffled (the right one), the left one is different, Is it also a pop valve?

6) Check valve! OK, I answered myself...

7) This bell seems to be fixed and activated by some duct. Having a hard time finding a suitable brass casting. Maybe I should bash it myself.

8) Funny piping going through the lagging... Any idea?

9) My guess is that they are air lines going from back to front. I was able to retrace them up to the ash pan/firebox. Am I right?

[Image: Question2.jpg]

I retraced the "air pipe" were it could be seen.

What is the pipe entering the smokebox? I suspect a steam exhaust line from some apparatus. What the name of the small thing/valve entering the smokebox?

Finally, I couldn't locate the air strainer for the air pumps. A class O-12-f picture of an active locomotive seems to locate it under the running board, right to the first air pump. Crazy connection of two pumps too...

Matt
sailormatlac Wrote:Rethinking about it, I'm quite thrilled to tackle the CNR 0-6-0 project at this point.

Question: It may sounds funny, but most of my steam locomotive projects are stalled for stanchions (handrail posts) shortage. I've been looking for them for months but most online shops are out of stock for short ones. It's getting really annoying to think models aren't completed because of such a trifle. Nope I've scavenged everything I could from defunct steamers. I'm remember a guy who told me he waited years to finish specfic locomotives because he waited for parts.

Any idea were I could get them? And in good quantity?

Other questions:

[Image: Question1.jpg]

1) What is this structure on the tender? Doesn't look like a water hatch to me.

2) Lots of piping under the cab. What is it. Also, what is the use of the pipes running under the cab and runningboard (not the coil for the air pump)?

3) The steam generator seems to be connected to some valve with an handle. If you look on the cab front, you'll see some pipes and things near the window...

4) What's this valve? It's name, it's use...

5) I guess they are pop valves. However, one seems to be muffled (the right one), the left one is different, Is it also a pop valve?

6) Check valve! OK, I answered myself...

7) This bell seems to be fixed and activated by some duct. Having a hard time finding a suitable brass casting. Maybe I should bash it myself.

8) Funny piping going through the lagging... Any idea?

9) My guess is that they are air lines going from back to front. I was able to retrace them up to the ash pan/firebox. Am I right?

[Image: Question2.jpg]

I retraced the "air pipe" were it could be seen.

What is the pipe entering the smokebox? I suspect a steam exhaust line from some apparatus. What the name of the small thing/valve entering the smokebox?

Finally, I couldn't locate the air strainer for the air pumps. A class O-12-f picture of an active locomotive seems to locate it under the running board, right to the first air pump. Crazy connection of two pumps too...

Matt

Precision Scale has handrail stanchions in various styles and sizes - I counted eleven different ones in my catalogue. I believe that they have a minimum order of $20.00, though. While you're very adept at making detail parts from found items, Matt, it may be worth your while to order their "HO and HOn3 Steam Locomotive Super-Detailing Parts" catalogue. That, along with a few packages of handrail stanchions, will easily put you over the minimum. Wink

To answer some of your questions...

1. Hard to tell if that's a piece of metal to prevent spilled coal from rolling down the sloped deck of the cistern or if it's a box for water-treatment chemicals (to be added to the cistern water to prevent foaming in the boiler - some areas of western Canada in particular were noted for poor-quality boiler water.

2.Much of that under-cab piping is to do with the air system - some connects to the cooling coils, at least one goes forward to the tender deck and the front air hose (#9 on your photo), and some goes up through the cab floor to the brake control stand. The item right under the cab floor to the rear appears to be the distributing valve for the twin single-phase airpumps. The diagonal pipe running from the tender's water supply pipe is the injector's suction pipe to carry water to the top-mounted check valve (#6), while most of the other piping is for the steam which operates the injector, along with a line for the exhaust steam and an overflow (for excess water when the injector is shut-off).

3. It's difficult to make out the details in the photo, but the generator is run by live steam from the turret (a manifold used to distribute steam to the various appliances on the loco - it's located atop the boiler, either in the cab, as on this loco, or immediately ahead of it). The exhaust steam is usually vented to the air - that may be the tip of the exhaust pipe protruding above the rear sand dome. The other pipe from the generator will be conduit for the electrical output wires, which appears to enter a junction box on the handrail. From there, a conduit runs along the cab eaves, while wires for the headlight, class lights and front number board are likely routed through the handrail.

4. This is only a guess, but that valve may be a pressure-reducing valve to take steam from the boiler for some auxiliary purpose, such as cleaning the running gear - a suitable hose would be used along with a means to control the output.

5. You're correct: pop valves could be muffled or unmuffled and there were always at least two, set at different pressures so that if one failed, the other would avert a catastrophe.

6. You've got it: a top-feed check valve. Thumbsup The water line on the fireman's side also connects to this same valve.

7. That's an air-activated bell, and is, as you note, fixed in place. The clapper is moved by air pressure which is activated from the cab and regulated by a self-closing/opening mechanism. The Precision Scale catalogue shows two dozen bells, several of them air operated, although none are exactly like that one. The easiest way to simulate it is to use a standard non-swinging bell (one-piece casting) and add an airline to the bell bracket.

8. Not sure about this one. It could simply be an exhaust steam line from appliance, or may have something to do with valve lubrication.

9. You're correct on this one, too, Matt.

On the fireman's side of the loco, that pipe entering the smokebox is indeed an exhaust steam line, but I have no idea of what that fitting is called. Misngth

That does look to be the air pipe running to the pilot deck, but the usual practice was to run the piping to the opposite side of the loco, through cooling coils, then back to the cooling coils on the fireman's side of the loco, then to the air tanks. To sufficiently cool the compressed air (in order to avoid false pressure readings), a minimum of 75' of pipe was required between the compressor and the air reservoir.

As for those air compressors, the single phase pumps generally weren't fitted with air strainers like those used on the cross-compound type. The inlet for the air is visible on lower section of the rear pump - it's located right near the top of the lower section, facing forward - a stub of a pipe with an open end (the end would be covered by a metal mesh to keep the bigger lumps out of the system). Misngth

I didn't notice until I had gone through your questions, but the loco shown is out-of-service, with its main rods atop the running boards (the bearing end is within the yellow circle on the fireman's-side view). Also note the cover over the stack to keep the birds out. Wink

Wayne
Matt!

Have you ever thought to this:
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<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://shop.cad-im-modellbau.de/product_info.php?products_id=3748">http://shop.cad-im-modellbau.de/product ... ts_id=3748</a><!-- m -->
It is only an example what i mean.
There also must be in the US or Canada dealers for model ship builders stuff.

Get the ones made out of turned brass. Not the lenght is important, but the seize of the turned knobs.
Cut them in pieces just above the knobs, so you get, depending on type, 2 till 3 loco handrail stanchions out of this nautical handrail stancions.
At least they are not so expensive as lost wax parts.
Years ago i begun making my handrail stancions for locos out of those ship parts.

Pete has explained all of your questions.
My remarks:
8) i believe this are oiling pipes from the central oiling device to the cylinders
The tube into the smokebox: This may be an auxilary blower. Here steam can be blown onto the blastpipe while the loco is standing to get more draft to the fire.


Lutz
Lutz!

Schraddel Wrote:Years ago i begun making my handrail stancions for locos out of those ship parts.

Clever idea! And at least my LHS carry a lot of ship parts. What I like, is tht you can easily adjust the lenght to your need. Particularly useful for tender stanchions.

Matt
Wayne!

Great info as always. You're a livig encyclopedia! Maybe I should get a book about steam locomotives. The more I learn about how they work, the more I'm getting interested in them.

doctorwayne Wrote:Precision Scale has handrail stanchions in various styles and sizes - I counted eleven different ones in my catalogue. I believe that they have a minimum order of $20.00, though. While you're very adept at making detail parts from found items, Matt, it may be worth your while to order their "HO and HOn3 Steam Locomotive Super-Detailing Parts" catalogue. That, along with a few packages of handrail stanchions, will easily put you over the minimum. Wink

I'll follow your advice. Thumbsup But I'm puzzled by their website. Except a few items and catalogs that can be ordered with their shopping cart, there's no clue how to order other parts...

Matt
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