I am thinking about making another major change on my layout. This would require raising a track ten inches in fifteen feet. I am not very good at figuring grades, all I know is supposedly 2% is about the maximum. Any how is this a really steep grade or is it OK?

Way too steep , Lester , that's about triple the recommended % . I think your locos would have a lot of difficulty .

Hi Lester, it's a little steep. Many people under estimate the space a low grade rise takes up.

Grades are easily calculated.
Your length / distance of 15 feet is 180 inches. (15 x 12).

The height you want to rise is 10". the formula to get the gradient in percentages is (height/distance) x 100.
In your case this gives (10/180) x 100 = 5.55%

A reasonable optimum is 2% , although a friend of mine uses a 4% maximum grade. To run this okay, he uses helper engines (a fun extra operational aspects) or additional head end power.
I'd say 2.5% to 3% is maximum for most people, the less the better.

As many people to not have the space in a trainroom to raise that much on a longer stretch, the helix was invented . That in itself takes up a lot of space, particularly if you use large radius track (and most people would to ensure a longer heavier train doesn't get pulled over(cars tipping over etc) ).

2% in a straight run would need a length of 500 inches or 41.5 feet of track! That is much easier achievable in a helix, than a straight stretch. (The above example of 4% needs half that )

Hope this helps.

Koos

If you could post a picture of the area you intend to work on , perhaps we could all have a look and maybe offer suggestions ??

T

Most people seem to run 1.5% to 2.0% for convenience sake, given the length of track necessary to get decent separation; however, model locos will handle grades up to around 4% with a little fine tuning, proper balancing and weighting, and a liberal dose of Bullfrog Snot. Prototype railroads did a lot more than that. The Florence and Cripple Creek Railroad climbed 5,000 feet in around fourteen miles, at an average grade of 4% and a final grade of 6% at the Wilbur Loop. Logging railroads have been known to operate at up to 9% grades. Another trick is to place a small motor from a switching diesel or the like into a tender and use it to supplement the power of your engine.

If you haven't got room for a helix, or don't want to go to the trouble, remember that there were no helices in real life...but there were switchbacks.

Lester Perry Wrote:I am thinking about making another major change on my layout. This would require raising a track ten inches in fifteen feet. I am not very good at figuring grades, all I know is supposedly 2% is about the maximum. Any how is this a really steep grade or is it OK?

Lester the C&O had several 2% grades..

2% is a acceptable grade for our layouts..There shouldn't be any issues.

Here's a 2% grade at the Bucyrus HO club.

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Lester:
It will depend on your trains. Some of them will take pretty steep grades -- with short trains. Some of them won't even take mild grades. I have a loco (B'mann Emily) that will not pull the 2 coaches supplied up a 2% grade.
I had a train that required double heading on my 2%. After a few years I tried it again and it went with a single loco (wear on the wheel treads?)

What you might do is take an 8 foot plank (no bends) and lay track along it. Raise the end a half-inch at a time and see what your train will climb. Each inch is pretty close to a percent. If you want to get closer to yours, put the support at the 7 1/2 foot mark (half your 15 feet).

Like I said, I am thinking about this. I am not sure if I want to venture into it because it is so difficult for me to do these things now. What I am trying to do is figure out how hard it will be to do. Right now I am finishing up my last adventure which has taken a little more than a year to this point. I will probably be another six months on it. In case you missed it the thread on it is <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.the-gauge.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=4990">viewtopic.php?f=46&t=4990</a><!-- l -->

If I could find someone close to me that would help it would definitely happen.

Looks like you are about 3 hours from me. That is a reasonable distance for an opportunity to visit and work on a layout. Is the work something that could be accomplished in a day?

Dave

I have a 4% on my layout, but it is narrow gauge and is actually prototypical. For my rod-engines (2-8-0s), that's about 2-3 cars and a caboose before slipping. For my shay, I can pull a few more.

From my experience with previous layouts, 4% is about the maximum you can do. My childhood layout had a grade around 6%, the cheap trainset locomotives could barely pull themselves up the grade, but a heavier Athearn could pull a few cars. Model steam engines are slipperier than diesels. A pair of heavy 6-axle diesels may be able to handle a decent train up a steeper grade, but to run any decent-length train behind a steam engine I would do everything I could to keep my maximum grades to 2%. And if you are going to have a steep grade, it works best if it is straight. Curves on steep grades are usually a disaster.

I like Mountain Man's suggestion of a switchback. The railroad that I am basing my freelanced road after replaced some long wooden trestles and steep grades with switchbacks.

Acceptable grades ? Why, nothing but straight "A" s of course!

My On30 modules need to get the track up about 4", but I really only have the center module ( 4' ) in which to "climb". It will be a switchback, but I need the 4' at each end, for the train to clear the turnouts for the reverse move. I'm kind of stuck with a 4.2% grade for each leg of the switchback.
The right hand end of the module set, will be a "dog hole harbor", with a 68' lumber Schooner anchored. The lumber loads have to be moved to the higher elevation so they can be high-lined to the waiting Schooner.
If this were an HO module set, I could get away with about a 2-3% grade- - - Oh well. :oops:

( there's no grade at all on my one N scale module ) ,
unless I elevate one end of it

Brakie Wrote:

Lester Perry Wrote:I am thinking about making another major change on my layout. This would require raising a track ten inches in fifteen feet. I am not very good at figuring grades, all I know is supposedly 2% is about the maximum. Any how is this a really steep grade or is it OK?

Lester the C&O had several 2% grades..

2% is a acceptable grade for our layouts..There shouldn't be any issues.

Here's a 2% grade at the Bucyrus HO club.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVxbqUyLRQ4&list=UUoW4ujV1WBLIHRwYyJbLCNg&index=2">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVxbqUyL ... Ng&index=2</a><!-- m -->

A 2% grade and three locomotives...

Puddlejumper Wrote:Looks like you are about 3 hours from me. That is a reasonable distance for an opportunity to visit and work on a layout. Is the work something that could be accomplished in a day?
Dave

I am not doing it anytime soon as I said earlier I am still finishing another project. But I will keep you in mind if and when I decide to do it. I think it will be at least 6 months.

I did some more measuring and calculating. The best I can hope for is 4%. I guess I need to do some more thinking.