As I threatened to do, I'm opening a thread about modeling passenger service. I'm frustrated that it isn't getting a lot of attention on any forum, even though Walthers, Kato, and others are making a lot of models available, contemporary and classic. Here's some Amtrak action at my refurbished Zenith depot:
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One thing that's worth pointing out is that a lot of things can happen from a modeling-operational and photography standpoint that go beyond just looking at a train. Here's a P32BWH in switching service, with private cars:
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Here's a Surfliner F59PHI on a terminal track by itself:
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Does anyone know of any currently active passenger-transit forums? What are other guys doing with passenger-transit modeling?

I read this forum just prior to riding the Empire Builder a few years ago. Not sure how active it is now...
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Most people don't have the space for curves wide enough to handle 85' cars, nor to they have big enough yards and enough towns to justify and real passenger ops. I wanted to run a passenger train (and will) on my layout but it will come out of staging on one side of the layout pass thru the junction and disappear into staging on the other side then return later in the day which is all the real train did, there was no reason for it to stop out in the middle of nowhere and being it was a dead-end branch line they actually quit almost 20 years before my time period. Chuck Hitchcock built a big HO layout that was mainly pass. ops ( and featured in MR and GMR) but I guess it just wasn't enough action (another problem for most people)so he tore in down and refilled the basement with nothing but one freight yard after another, basically a multi-thousand square foot switching layout.

Closest thing to pax service on my LAJ Ry switching layout will be a PV parked on an unused spur waiting for its next run on Amtrak. LOL

Well, you don't have to have wide curves for shorter cars.

Our German counterparts seem to be far more likely to model large stations and passenger service than freight service. This is partially because we are mostly familiar with freight service, while they are more familiar with passenger service.

The action on a passenger layout is at terminal stations. In between terminals, there was usually little more than picking up/dropping off a dinner or a sleeper en route. But at a Terminal, you had far more interesting operations. For example, Cincinnati Union Terminal: Since it was the end of the line for the Southern, N&W, C&O, PRR, and L&N, all of their trains were broken down by the Terminal switchers (Lima 0-6-0s) and the road power was sent to the Terminal roundhouse for service. While the NYC and B&O didn't terminate there, many of their trains did and so the same still applies. Breaking down a train consisted of taking the head end cars to the express/mail facility north of the main building. The rest of the passenger cars, after emptying, were taken to the passenger car servicing area (load up the fresh food on that diner and sweep up the crumbs!). Through cars, mostly sleepers, had to be removed from their arriving train and placed on their departing train. Another form of action is variety. At CUT, you'd have PRR T-1s and K-4s, N&W Js, C&O 4-6-4s, Southern Ps-4s, B&O 4-6-2s, NYC 4-6-4s, and L&N 4-8-2s. It is hard to justify such a variety on any freight layout. Of these, the NYC, N&W, B&O, and PRR all used the same trackage north out of the terminal for several miles...which was shared by B&O freight trains.

My Oahu Railway will have a heavy passenger train component, but the 70 mile long line had no diners, sleeping cars, or passenger interchange service, so the operations won't be as neat as they could be. But, it will have a passenger terminal and so there will be an opportunity to keep a crew busy building a breaking down the passenger trains. The principal advantage of including a sizable portion of the heavy passenger train schedule (40 scheduled trains per day) is that it increases the challenge for all of the switching crews. I've experienced this affect operating on others layouts, and they are great for large Op-sessions. I'd even like to us computer control to automate a passenger train or two in smaller op sessions to add this challenge.

Amtrak service is so sparse as to be invisible to very many modelers these days. That said, passenger service is very cool. I particularly like the British-pattern halts and terminals on the late great Carl Arendt's website. A narrow shelf terminal (possibly along the lines of the late lamented CNJ Newark Terminal) would be a great place to show-off arriving and departing RDC's for USA purposes. The gates and news stands are icons, and can be modeled in quite small spaces; nevermind the RDC's simply disappear into hidden staging, and then arrive from same. My onions. Ric

Amtrak isn't the only game in town. There are a lot of newer transit agencies, too, and push-pull service lends itself to shelf layouts. Also, there's N, and while there isn't as much stuff available, it's out there -- the Kato is very good, for that matter.

A couple of Amtrak electrics:
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Where passenger service is concerned, there is (was...) only one....
(Sorry for the angle...)

nkp_174 Wrote:Another form of action is variety. At CUT, you'd have PRR T-1s and K-4s, N&W Js, C&O 4-6-4s, Southern Ps-4s, B&O 4-6-2s, NYC 4-6-4s, and L&N 4-8-2s. It is hard to justify such a variety on any freight layout. Of these, the NYC, N&W, B&O, and PRR all used the same trackage north out of the terminal for several miles...which was shared by B&O freight trains.

I almost mistook your "CUT" for the Cleveland Union Terminal, which also had an interesting operation.

the Cleveland Union Terminal was electrified with 3,000 volts DC mounted on overhead wire mounted on a catenary system similar to the New Haven's in style.

The "CUT" was operated by big electric motors, the P1a. The New Haven EP3 and later PRR GG1s would copy the P1's wheel arrangement. These motors first arrived in 1929/1930, and apparently did well until dieselization resulted in a discontinuance of the electrification in 1953.

The P1as were rebuilt to run off of New York Central's third rail and reclassified P2 (they would run into the Penn Central years in this service), handling heavy long distance trains arriving and departing Grand Central Station in New York City.

Certainly, most of the power you mentioned for Cincinnati's Union Terminal might have been visible at Cleveland's union terminal, where they might have swapped out the motors for the rest of their run.

Model wise, you could represent these passenger operations without devoting a huge amount of space to the terminal itself. You could simply model the "swap" with the steam and electric motive power.

They just recently released another run of Brass P-motors, and they weren't to hard to get before now anyway (the older brass models are going for less than some of the steam engines out there from BLI and still look pretty good).



I love these engines with the NYC lightning stripes! Unfortunately, I forgot my vast fortune in my other pocket. This sunset models has sound and such, but I don't think I could shell out the $1100 this thing costs.

Tyson Rayles Wrote:Most people don't have the space for curves wide enough to handle 85' cars, nor to they have big enough yards and enough towns to justify and real passenger ops.

There are plenty of opportunities out there! Even before the arrival of the first "modern" 85' HEP Push-pull sets in 1971, the CNJ and the PRR both had push-pull operations.

The CNJ would use GP7s, (possibly trainmasters up to 1968?) to run push-pull sets with its older 1920/30s coaches. These actually continued to run well into Conrail and NJ DOT. They were probably only retired once the modern Comet II push-pulls arrived in the 80s, though now being run with ex CNJ GP40Ps (the locomotive from my GOYD challenge). Bethlehem Car Works makes the coach kits, and sells a "car end" that can be made into the cab-car face. These kits are no longer than any other "shorty" suburban coach of that time period, such as the MP54.




In my neck of the woods, the PRR, and Penn Central for a short time, ran a push-pull set from Pavonia yard in Camden, NJ, to Pemberton, using a Baldwin switcher (either a PRR unit, or a borrowed PRSL unit), or sometimes even a GP7. There were two specialized P70 coaches with a Headlight, horn, and apparently, rudimentary controls. Actually, as I understood it, the initial "push" runs were non-revenue. There were two trains, each facing the other direction. They would run revenue trains with passengers while pulling, and would then make a non-revenue run pushing back to Pavonia.

Model wise, I think a P70 is still a little shorter than an 85' car (I though the 70 referred to passenger cabin space, minus vestibules and couplers and such). It wouldn't take much to modify a PRR P70 model into a Pemberton car.

I've made some progress on the Walthers dummy E60CP that I got partially assembled at a swap meet.
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I added an extra set of Walthers pantographs I had on hand, because the ones in the kit had been damaged. I also made up as many of the damaged or missing detail parts as I could, and did a little paint touchup. The next step for now will probably be adding couplers and putting it as a motor-storage scenery item, as I don't think the pantographs are really operable.

I've been pulling out Walthers Amfleets and Amtrak Horizon cars. Most of my Amfleets are 1980s models that I found on sale at a hobby shop and loaded up. The Walthers cars don't have the continuation of the tri-stripe onto the corner posts past the doors. I've fixed this on my Phase III Amfleets:
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However, while I've tweaked my Phase III Horizons, I haven't fixed the stripes on the corner posts yet:
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jwb Wrote:I've made some progress on the Walthers dummy E60CP that I got partially assembled at a swap meet.

I added an extra set of Walthers pantographs I had on hand, because the ones in the kit had been damaged. I also made up as many of the damaged or missing detail parts as I could, and did a little paint touchup. The next step for now will probably be adding couplers and putting it as a motor-storage scenery item, as I don't think the pantographs are really operable.

Ah cool. I think you can use Athearn U-boat/F45 trucks and drive components to make it work (my NJT E60CH and Amtrak E60MA both started as dummies). I think the F45 motor cradle weight from Proto Power west can also do the trick. I don't remember it costing to much to get these drive components.

As for the pantographs, I agree, they're pretty miserable. My hope is that the Metroliner pantographs will be available for separate sale somehow from Walthers, and we can use those Faively pans to replace these. Same for the Stemman pantographs for all those Arrows.

It seems like most other existing Faively pantographs are pretty bad, even on some of the brass engines (except my E44s). The European versions look OK, but they're to short for American locomotives.

I wonder how hard it would be to make a proper one? It would probably be easier than those Stemman pantographs, because the stabilizer bar is slightly more accessible, and it at least appears easier to make. Probably the pantograph shoes would be difficult, but if we're talking about these American GK/Walthers locomotives, we could just re-use those shoes.

Quote:I've been pulling out Walthers Amfleets and Amtrak Horizon cars. Most of my Amfleets are 1980s models that I found on sale at a hobby shop and loaded up. The Walthers cars don't have the continuation of the tri-stripe onto the corner posts past the doors. I've fixed this on my Phase III Amfleets:

However, while I've tweaked my Phase III Horizons, I haven't fixed the stripes on the corner posts yet:

Its weird how the Amtrak stripes and the outside-framed trucks make these look so different from the Comet II they are based off of. I've got a bunch of the older Walthers Amfleets myself. I wish I could replace them with the new ones when they come out, but I'm saving my budget for those new Metroliners.

eje Wrote:Amtrak service is so sparse as to be invisible to very many modelers these days. That said, passenger service is very cool. I particularly like the British-pattern halts and terminals on the late great Carl Arendt's website. A narrow shelf terminal (possibly along the lines of the late lamented CNJ Newark Terminal) would be a great place to show-off arriving and departing RDC's for USA purposes. The gates and news stands are icons, and can be modeled in quite small spaces; nevermind the RDC's simply disappear into hidden staging, and then arrive from same. My onions. Ric

Another possibility could be Atlantic City's NJT terminal. It only has 5 tracks, and the typical NJ Transit train is 3-4 cars. They only feature longer trains on days like the Atlantic City Airshow (even then, I want to say it wasn't significantly longer, maybe a 6 car train). The trains only ever run push-pull out of Atlantic City, and depending on when you model, you can find an excuse for interesting equipment.

Late 80s-early 90s had Amtrak F40PHs with Metroliner Cab-control cars, as well as NJ Transit F40PH and GP40FH-2s running three car sets.

If you model a few years ago, you might need to dig up some GP40PH-2s, but all the Comets are available either as the Walthers "Horizon" commuter coach (Comet II), or IMW Comets IV/V/ Bi-levels.

In particular, the ACES train ran with ex Amtrak P40DCs (painted in NJT's new scheme) with special Bi-level commuter cars (one of which turned into a VERY fancy lounge/parlor car), and an ALP44 electric tacked onto the "rear". The ALP44 would push-pull the train under wire, and the P40DC would Push-Pull on the Atlantic City line. Either locomotive could be used as a cab control car when the other was running.

Certainly, seeing an electric locomotive operating outside of the wire must have been a strange site! (I only ever witnessed this train twice, both times as it sped away from Newark Penn Station, under wire on the NEC).

If you "selectively compressed" the line, You could almost get away with modeling the PATCO as well, though that's for another post.

A video-

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Ex Amtrak P40DC (occupies NJT's former GG1 roadnumber slot!) Pushing towards Atlantic city, passing the Woodcrest PATCO station. The consist is a Comet IIM coach, two Comet IV coaches, and a Comet IV Cab-control car.