I'm reworking an older steam engine and there is a question about use of red back lights.
The tender has one great white lamp only for reverse running - electric lights, not old petroleum lamps.
I would like to see a red light at tender if engine is running in forward direction without a train - thus the engine only. Was there used a simple red glas blend that was set (plunged) ahead the lamp front at the tender for such a case? Or how was marked the train end at an engine?
I would like to insert a white and additional a red led into this lamp and all could be solved? However would be this correct? Unfortunately I have not a second lamp or specific back lamps to realize a red light at this loco.
What can I do in order to get a correct realization? The engine is a really expansive and factory painted model so that I do not like to make big changes.
If the new electrical pickups at tender are ready I will show a few first pictures here. Thanks for your help!

Steam locos sometimes had rear-facing headlights on the tender, though this was not a 100% rule. A headlight in the US was (and is) always clear-white. Steam locos could have either or both classification lights and marker lights, which could be either permanent or detachable on the smokebox sides or on the ends of the pilot beam. The tender could have equivalent lights. These are the ones that could have selectable colors. They are much smaller than headlights, and modelers have only recently begun to find ways to light them in smaller scales. A loco running light in the forward direction without a train on the main line would probably have marker lights on the rear of the tender, at least at night, and if the loco were running forward, the marker lights would show red to the rear. The tender rear headlight would probably be off in the steam era. (In late steam, some railroads would have the marker lights built into fairings on the rear of the tender, but before the 1930s, they would probably be detachable.)

In the daylight, though, there could well be just a single red flag on the coupler if the loco was running forward without a train on the main line. A switcher or any loco within yard limits would not use marker or class lights, so this would not apply.

A few railroads, like the Lackawanna, the C&NW, and the Southern Pacific, had auxiliary headlights on the front of the loco that went red if the emergency brakes were applied (called "dump lights" on at least the Lackawanna). This was to warn a train on double track coming in the opposite direction that since the emergency brakes had been applied, there might be derailed equipment behind that loco that could foul the opposing train. However, the dump light was in addition to the headlight and was not normally lit for anything but an emergency situation. Also, there was no dump light on the rear of the tender.

I recognize that European diesels and electric locos display red tail lights that are larger than red markers on the rear in the US, but the US rules are somewhat different and not consistent.

jbw, many thanks for this detailed explanation.
I have looked for samples where marker/classification lights were used however these are lights with a use since 1920 or later. All pictures of the time after 1907 (the mentioned engine was built in that year) did not have classification lights - and so I must do my detailing without the loved red back lights.
You are right, these red lights rear of engines are a very common rule at German engines, modern like steam, and I was sure that same things should exist also at other railroads including in USA. Ok, all is said - white lights for my model and no more!
Thanks again!

The exact use of markers and class lights on steam locos varied according to the railroad as well as the time period. Here is a photo of the PRR D16sb in the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania:

The markers are on the sides of the smokebox, while the class lights are on the ends of the pilot beam. This would have been typical of the PRR from roughly 1905 onward, but other railroads will differ. The PRR removed the class lights from freight steam locos in the 1930s.

jwb Wrote:The exact use of markers and class lights on steam locos varied according to the railroad as well as the time period. Here is a photo of the PRR D16sb in the Railroad Museum of Pennsylvania:

The markers are on the sides of the smokebox, while the class lights are on the ends of the pilot beam. This would have been typical of the PRR from roughly 1905 onward, but other railroads will differ. The PRR removed the class lights from freight steam locos in the 1930s.

I believe you have that reversed.

Class lights have only 2 colors:
Dark - regular
Green - section following
White - extra.

Since the lights on the pilot beam have red/yellow lenses they aren't class lights.
Markers are the lights on the rear of the train. The marker lights on the pilot beam would only be lit if the engine was running in reverse.

The PRR did things in unique ways -- however, my understanding continues to be that the lights on the smokebox are markers, those on the pilot beam are class lights (or the use of the lights on the smokebox may have changed when the lights on the pilot beam were removed). Here's a photo of a PRR freight loco after the permanent class lights were removed from the pilot:

Note, however, that you can see the tender rear in this photo, it continues to have semi-permanently mounted markers. I can think of two explanations for the lens colors in the RR Museum of Pennsylvania photo: either the museum mounted the lenses in error, or the function of the lights by the smokebox front changed when the lights on the pilot beam were removed from freight locos. As a near-charter member of the PRRT&HS (at one point, I think Buchan was about to toss me out until he saw my membership number), I can't recall any clear explanation of what may have changed when the lights on the pilot beam were removed from freight locos. If Dave has a good reference, that's even better!

The exact use and position of the class lights/markers on PRR locos doesn't change the general situation of headlight/marker color above, of course. It does point out how usage in areas like this was not standardized on US railroads.

Jwb and Dave,
thanks for your discussion. I think it could be a longer explanation which must differ in railroads, eras and various equipped engines with/without markers and classification lamps.
Modeler's problem will be to find a reduced solution for "his" specific case. And here I'm a lucky man in best meaning - my model (an Erie L-1 0-8-8-0) have had neither marker nor classification lamps in its whole living time from 1907 to 1921. Or I have not found pictures with such lamps until now.

Actually, Bernhard, I think you can see a marker on the Erie 0-8-8-0 at the pilot beam, just to the right of the crewman standing on the footboard.

My guess is that these locos were helpers, would probably have spent half their lives running in reverse, so that the marker on the pilot would have covered it running downhill in reverse. It's worth pointing out that if markers were detachable, they wouldn't normally appear in builders photos, which would be the most common source of photos for early locos.

JBW, you are right!
I have stored this picture in my photo collection also and never I have seen these lamps. I have searched them all times on smokebox and on rear of tender but never in this lovered position ahead of pilot beam.
Thanks, and now the idea to add them - or not?

Heck, I'd put em on! It's an unusual and eye-catching detail.

I agree with jwb, just add them!! It makes the engine look good. As far as the 1223, I helped clean and light the marker and classification lights..

You'll notice that the 3 colors of the glass are Blue, Red and Yellow, there are also clear ones.

The reason is that the steam engines used kerosene to light the lights. Now - think back to grade school...... Kerosene burns Yellow....

Blue + Yellow makes Green
Red + Yellow makes Orange (Classification and also second engine in a doubleheader)
Yellow + Yellow makes Bright Yellow (Classification)

The light housings are all rotatable to show the "colors" either forward, reverse or both directions (Per PRR Rules). They are cast iron too - Heavy!!!! ...and when you're standing along side the boiler, holding on with one hand, I can't imagine the noise and the frustration of turning the lights at night in the rain.

I did it when she was in the location, in the above picture and it was just a "bit" unnerving.. But it was SO COOL!!!!!! and I got bragging rights too!!!!!

I had to lift off the covers, hand them down off the engine, remove the lenses, carefully take them to our shop and clean them all off... The other guy was checking the wiring and replacing the lights and then I came back and reset the lenses and he handed them back up to me, so I could replace them... Both of us climbing all around the old girl

If you look at the top lights in the picture, you'll notice they are white. The bulbs are white. I put in a suggestion that they buy yellow bug lights to put in, so the colors would be authentic. As of my last visit, last Summer, the bulbs are still white

ngauger Wrote:The reason is that the steam engines used kerosene to light the lights. Now - think back to grade school...... Kerosene burns Yellow....

When I was in grade school, we had electricity for lighting.

Sorry, I couldn't resist .....now please resume your more serious discussion.

Mark

As for the lenses on the PRR locos at the RR Museum of Pa, you'll notice that they aren't the same on all the locos. It is pretty well believed that the RRMofPa (or the Penn Central prior to donation) used what was available to fill the openings of the lamps since they didn't have all the right colors. In practice the PRR used the same colors as everyone else (green, white) and used red for when an engine was running light or pushing on the rear of a train. I do believe they used blue in Kersone days to get green, but after the electric lamps were invented the lenses would have been green.

Dave

Puddlejumper Wrote:As for the lenses on the PRR locos at the RR Museum of Pa, you'll notice that they aren't the same on all the locos. It is pretty well believed that the RRMofPa (or the Penn Central prior to donation) used what was available to fill the openings of the lamps since they didn't have all the right colors. In practice the PRR used the same colors as everyone else (green, white) and used red for when an engine was running light or pushing on the rear of a train. I do believe they used blue in Kersone days to get green, but after the electric lamps were invented the lenses would have been green.

Dave

I believe that - it's possible that they just put any available lens in just to donate them... The only reason we were thinking the blue lenses were used, was that there is one on each cover, so we thought that it was a good explanation