I assume everyone by now knows about the visit over-the-hill rocker Rod Stewart paid to George Sellios's Franklin & South Manchester <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/local/north/10012433039643/rod-stewart-visits-peabody-model-train-collector/">http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/loca ... collector/</a><!-- m --> It probably isn't so bad that celebrities, even those well past their prime, "come out" as model railroad hobbyists, although Stewart isn't the first by any means (Frank Sinatra, Mel Torme, and Tom Snyder at least were known to have model railroads of various kinds; Torme endorsed Fleischmann in ads in the 1950s.) It's interesting that Sellios would be the one actually to draw the attention of a real Hollywood celeb, since I have the impression that he's the humblest of the first-tier well-known hobbyists, like Tony Koester, Lance Mindheim, or Tony Thompson. Of course, nobody in LA is ever going to get past Stewart's security and entourage to get in to see Stewart's own layout. But think about this: Stewart's visit to Sellios came only after Sellios retired from the kit business. Presumably he's not going to sell any more kits, for any more money, because Stewart paid him a visit and was photographed with his arm around Sellios's shoulders. Says a lot about Sellios, I think.
Then there's the second tier. I got in a certain amount of trouble on Lance Mindheim's blog <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.lancemindheim.com/blog.htm">http://www.lancemindheim.com/blog.htm</a><!-- m --> (scroll down to November 30) for a post I made as JWB on another forum, raising some questions about his approach to the hobby and second-tier hobby celebrity status. He also got bent out of shape at a letter-to-the-editor I sent to MR in which I noted a problem in Mindheim's article in the December 2013 MR -- a reference to "checken in a bag", whereby voodoo practitioners would place a live chicken in a bag, together with some money, to be squashed by a train as some sort of sacrifice. I suggested this was revolting cruelty to animals that shouldn't appear in a family magazine. MR apparently copied Mindheim on my letter, and Mindheim was upset enough about it to post on his blog. (Thinking further about this, I realized that this sort of thing is a felony in Florida. Lots of felonies take place in Miami -- why bring them in on model railroad layouts?)
I've gotten in some amount of trouble from time to time raising reasonable questions about hobby celebrities. The forum where I made the original post that got Mindheim upset wound up reviving the thread but, not banning me from posting in the rest of the forum, banned me from any more posts in the thread! They were much upset that I pointed out that cruelty to animals is a felony in Florida (and most other places, of course). I got in trouble on another forum several years ago for questioning a statement by Tony Thompson as to factuality. And not just on the forum -- guys have been angry with me for ten years or so about it!
Rod Stewart, at least, doesn't mind what's been said about him for 40 years. George Sellios no doubt knows that, while his modeling is top notch, not everyone has found his layout their cup of tea. Then there's the second tier. In the post where he complains about me, Mindheim compares himself to Miley Cyrus, of all people, so I guess he think's he is some sort of celleb. It's amazing how insecure some of these guys are. If you want to be a celebrity, it seems to me, you've got to take the stuff that goes with the territory.
For what it's worth I don't consider any modeler a celebrity. Yes the Mindheims and Koesters and Allens and McClellands are well known, but they are still just humans and model railroaders. As for the chicken in the bag- I never understood why people get upset over things like that on model railroads. There was a big hoopla over a video recently that had animated cars trying to beat the train, and a HO figure committing suicide in front of a train. These are fantasy worlds and I think the modeler should be able to represent his fantasy world as he pleases without having to answer to the correct police. It is like the big argument over whether graffiti should be applied to models. I don't model it. But if I was trying to make an accurate model of the 1990s New York Subway it would not be correct without graffiti.
I choose to look at others accomplishments and give praise when it is due. If I don't like the efforts made by a person, I move on and keep my thoughts and words to myself. THAT BEING SAID, Jwb, you have the right to express your opinion to the modeler, the magazines, the blogs and internet postings to your hearts desire and I support you and your right to do so. Just respect that the person you are giving criticism to may not like it and has the right to express that dislike as well. Like my post here, you might not like what I have to say regarding the situation, but we are grown up and able to handle ourselves as such.
I agree that any modeler that refers to himself as a celebrity or compares to a celebrity might need a reality check.
Interesting observations, Jwb.
Dave
I do notice that there was a pretty big letter-to-the-editor In MR saying that Pelle Soeborg was portraying a safety violation in a photo of a crew member moving a coupler without leaving enough space between the car and the loco. It's a fantasy world, but in this case, the MR editors seem to have felt the letter had a point -- no sense encouraging anyone to violate safety rules by example. This could certainly apply to anyone representing a car racing a train to the crossing . Depicting a suicide, though -- yucch. I would hope that magazine editors would have the good judgment not to print a photo of a model doing that -- that's what editors are for. (That was also the point I made in my letter to MR -- the editors shouldn't have let animal cruelty through in a family magazine.)
Nobody says you can't model, say, a train going to a concentration camp on your private home layout if that's what turns your crank. On the other hand, there are limits to good taste, and nobody's saying that people aren't entitled to go yuccch or even worse if they see it. That's what editors are for.
You know, Jwb, I believe I may have missed the train with regard to your original point, which was that the item was printed in a magazine. I agree that poor taste and poor judgement maybe should not be printed in a magazine. A modeler should be free to depict his world any way he sees fit, but that doesn't mean it should be printed in a magazine.
So I guess I am agreeing with you, just in a rather abstract way.
Dave
I suggested this was revolting cruelty to animals that shouldn't appear in a family magazine. MR apparently copied Mindheim on my letter, and Mindheim was upset enough about it to post on his blog. (Thinking further about this, I realized that this sort of thing is a felony in Florida. Lots of felonies take place in Miami -- why bring them in on model railroad layouts?)
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I suppose it what's ok with the modeler should be allowed since its part of the story.Gross yes,but part of the story setting ..
We use figures of mooners,a robber running from a bank or convenience store,a drunk holding a bottle etc and think its funny when actually its part of the real world..Nothing funny about that in my book.
Rod Stewarts visit to George Sellios outlined in the most recent issue of MR more than likely wasn't his first. If you had seen the very first spread MR did on Stewarts layout a few years ago, the article mentioned
Stewrart tried put the same level of detail into his layout as Mr. Sellios did on his. Looking at some of the pictures from that article, you would of thought George himself did the modeling. It also stated that Stewrat had a couple of building kits from Sellios's company on his layout.
Maybe the Mindenhiems, Koesters, and Thompsons don't have the same celebirty status as Rod Stewert, Frank Sinatra, or Mel Torme, but they are celebirties in the model railroad community. MR saw to that. We as hard working middle class people tend to forget that with the celebirties scheduals of personel appearences, concerts, and movie shoots, like us that work hard in an office, or a factory, also need time to "decompress". Model railroading is that escape away from the bright lights. To us Sinatra, Torme, and Stewart are big time celebs, with "a really cool hobby."
Also, us folks here in the United States also forget that different parts of the world have different cultures. When we see pictures of a modellers layout from another part of the globe, we tend to forget that modelling a "chicken in a bag", might be the norm from his country, but would have an American modeller on the phone to the ASPCA. It also works sthe opposite. A moldeller from that counntry sees we modleled a "prostitute on the corner", might have him gasping for air and thinking "How does he get away with that?" Different country, different cultures.
JWB you were right in voicing your opinions about Mindenhiem. As an American, you have that right. I think everyone, no matter where on this big blue marble lives, has that right. We just have to take each opinion with a grain of salt.
Besides...I won't want to see Mindenhiem swinging naked on a wrecking ball....
ED: Besides...I won't want to see Mindenhiem swinging naked on a wrecking ball....
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I think Jungle Jane would look better..
Besides...I won't want to see Mindenhiem swinging naked on a wrecking ball....
In all fairness, Lance Mindheim is in good shape.
People can pick and choose what they want to say on forums. They should just be respectful and constructive in what they say and keep the feelings of those that they are critical of and mindful of the others on the forum. I try to do that, but I'm not always successful.
By that same observation, I try to take criticism with a grain of salt. If someone doesn't agree with me, so be it. I won't make everybody happy and I have the same amount of money in my pocket whether anyone agrees with me or not. Many people don't like my small table top layout plans, and that's fine with me. They have another point of view than I do.
That being said, I don't think that mentioning or modelling stuff like chicken sacrifices or suicides are worth fighting over. It's the amount of realism that people are comfortable with modeling or looking at. These are things that happen(ed) in real life and can sometimes add to the flavor of the modelling.
There's a guy who models the wrong side of the tracks in HO scale
http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/topic...C_ID=18983. It has a guy with six bullet holes in his chest lying in a dumpster, ladies of the evening (one of whom is "big boned" with a deeper voice than the others), a pimp with a suitable ride named Leroy Brown (like the song), signs for a "gentlemen's club", homeless people, and other assorted down on it's luck neighborhood details. I find this to be great modelling and also a reminder of what I grew up in.
George Sellios' F&SM has all sorts of whimsical and body function jokes throughout the layout. There are guys relieving themselves all over the layout, a guy sitting on a discarded toilet reading a newspaper with his pants around his ankles, a guy sitting in an outhouse with the door falling open, women skinny dipping in the river, Y.B Fardy - makers of Gastorex, and a gangster car riddled with machine gun bullets hooked up to a tow truck. I find George Sellios' layout to quite possibly be one of the greatest modeled train layouts, ever. One of the reasons is because of it's stark realism.
People modeling the Holocaust have an important place in the hobby as well as social consciousness. They model a piece of history
that are reminders of how low humans can treat others. When people forget, that's when history repeats itself. Those who model the Old West rarely model the gun fighting in the streets, usually with innocent bystanders shot before the people who are targeted,
while sheriffs, marshals, and judges were often killed by the dozens for trying to do their job. Not so much of a full slice of history.
We can choose to model what we want as realistically as we want or take a break from reality and model an ideal world, where nothing bad happens. It's up to each persons tastes and levels of comfort.
As to celebrity, it's all a matter of what's important to the individual. I've met Academy Award winners and world leaders.They entertained us with their craft, and sometimes changed our perspective on things. I don't believe, however, that we should assign tier status or put them up on pedestals.
I knew a Statistics professor who used to streamline manufacturing practices. His name was W.E. Deming. You may not know of him, but you know his work. He showed the executives at Toyota, statistically, how to build quality cars from the not so good cars they were producing before. He was also responsible for setting up the manufacturing process for the original Ford Taurus, the car that saved the Ford Motor Company. This is a guy that should have received celebrity status because he changed peoples lives for the better, yet nobody has heard of him.
Personally, I like a lot of Lance Mindheim's ideas. I don't always agree 100% with his writing, but I agree with most of them.
Back in the day when Model Railroader was more about building models, and less about RTR, and DCC, there were names like Jack Work, Ralph Brown, Alan Armitage, William Clouser, John Armstrong, Carl Traub, and many, many more, from whom I learned the Art of modelbuilding.
These people were more about " This is one way of making better models ", or, " Here's some of the ways you can work with brass ",or, " building with styrene ", or, " how to model trees etc., that look more realistic ", than they were about, " Hey look at me!!! ".
The whole idea of "celebrity" is in fact "Hey Look At Me "!! the real "performers" are recognized for their work, more often than not, "quietly".
Lance Mindheim, has done for me personally, absolutely nothing.
Model Railroader, once its focus moved to RTR, and track plans, became useless to me, and I cancelled my subscription.
I'm just one of those "
out-of-their-times-model-builder-who-is-interested-in-learning-and-improving-his-model-building-skills.".
The closest I've come to a naked lady swinging on a wrecking ball, would be the bikini clad young ladies on the "LPB" cruise.
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attachment=15857]
If I have any "celebrities"......you just saw them in the photo above.
Oh, by the way, the shack, in the photo above was built from a Jack Work Construction article, of a "Lineside Tool Shed"
Lance Mindheim, has done for me personally, absolutely nothing.
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What Lance did do is bring the switching layout of the dark age closet and made modelers aware there is more to a switching layout the John Allen's "Time Saver" layout that was design and built for a NMRA switching contest that many still affiliates with the words " switching layout". We must give the man credit for top tier switching layout designs based on prototype locations.
Brakie Wrote:What Lance did do is bring the switching layout of the dark age closet and made modelers aware there is more to a switching layout the John Allen's "Time Saver" layout that was design and built for a NMRA switching contest that many still affiliates with the words " switching layout". We must give the man credit for top tier switching layout designs based on prototype locations.
I would add that Lance has also introduced a large group of modelers to how things are really done on the railroad and how operating a layout realistically really adds to the enjoyment. Lance, himself, is still learning and passes along what he has learned to those who follow his blogs. He certainly doesn't attempt to tell anyone that his layout style and modeling is the only way it should be done. I admire his work, along with the excellent work done by so many members of Big Blue, many of which should also be shown on the pages of the hobby rags.
While I don't want to beat this to death, I think there are several issues. One is that, in his articles and blog posts, Lance focuses on a single area -- downtown Miami -- a single architectural style -- commercial-vernacular-stucco -- and a single phase of rail operation -- final-delivery locals. I'm not sure exactly how anyone can think this makes him an expert on anything else. He doesn't cover signals, for instance, or yard operation, or operation of any other type of train, such as haulers, manifests, intermodals, unit trains, maintenance, or passenger. In addition, on his blog, I have the impression that he thinks the universe of new model rail hobbyists is henpecked guys who have a hard time getting permission to do anything from their wives. Certainly I've known guys like that, but in the end, as far as I've seen, their wives win out anyhow, and they leave the hobby.
On top of that, I always have the suspicion that the guy wants to persuade me to go on some new diet. A lot of his blog posts seem to be in that vein. If I want medical advice, I see my doctor. If I want to know how to live my life, I talk to my priest. I have other places to learn about model trains, for that matter. He just isn't credible as far as I'm concerned. I realize that some other people think he's saying important things. A lot of those guys live outside the US and take his version of what the US is like seriously. OK.
I assume the layouts he custom builds are good quality. I build my own and have no reason to engage his services. For that matter, I have no reason to buy his books. Otherwise, I wouldn't pay him much more attention than anyone else who claims to know more than he seems to know. It does interest me that, on the forums I've seen, the people who think the most of him don't live in the US.
One is that, in his articles and blog posts, Lance focuses on a single area -- downtown Miami -- a single architectural style -- commercial-vernacular-stucco -- and a single phase of rail operation -- final-delivery locals. I'm not sure exactly how anyone can think this makes him an expert on anything else. He doesn't cover signals, for instance, or yard operation, or operation of any other type of train, such as haulers, manifests, intermodals, unit trains, maintenance, or passenger.
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Lance isn't a new up and comer he was in N Scale and modeled the Monon and had couple of articles in MR.He is a experience modeler.As far as a single focus that's nothing new some focus on logging,coal,grain, steel and iron ore.
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a single architectural style -- commercial-vernacular-stucco -
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That is a common style of building in Florida and very common for industry.
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I'm not sure exactly how anyone can think this makes him an expert on anything else. He doesn't cover signals, for instance, or yard operation, or operation of any other type of train, such as haulers, manifests, intermodals, unit trains, maintenance, or passenger.
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One doesn't need to model that to be a "expert"..I don't model any of that but,I can sure enough tell you how its done after all railroad knowledge is part of the hobby.
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Like me Lance focus on work a day railroading that is a very important part of railroading in fact railroads would melt down and cease operations wasn't for this part of railroading.
I spent just over 8 years of my 9 1/2 years of railroading delivering or picking up cars.
