Hello!

One and a half dozen of secondhand purchased rollig stock arrived me yesterday. All are freight cars from P2K, Intermountain, Trix and Westerfield. All of these are high grade kits or RTR models.
Time for me to look what is really of rolling stock in my inventory. Too much.
There were old Athearn Blue Box freight cars, some toy train cars from Model Power, AHM and other of this sort. Cars with moulded on details, often rather relative coarse comparised with state-of-the-art models. All of them have had their first outcome (NEW) about in the 1960's.
All of them were upgraded with Kadee #58 couplers, metal wheels and in some cases with body mount coupler boxes years ago when i was becoming an US model railroader. In technical manner they ride satisfiying and make no trouble. But the details ...
Anywhere they have to go. Swapmeet or anything else. But there were the Kadee #58 Scale Head Couplers and the metal wheels. And these cars will only sell on the cheapo side. I do not belive any of this potential swapmeet buyers will pay even a cent more for Kadees and metal wheels.

So started to salvage them.


Right side an old Blue Box car with Kadee #58 and Kadee wheels.
The Kadee couplers and wheels were demounted and stored.
They were replaced by plastic wheels and the coupler clash like Kadee clones, Mc Henry, EZ and so on; left side on the photo.
Over the years a pretty stock of plastic couplers and plastic wheels has collected which have to go also. And here it is useful.

The salvaged Kadee parts will be very useful when i start building the Westerfield kits and upgrading the P2K and Trix cars.

My attemps to improvements of my rolling stock is to raise the quality level, not the quantity.

Lutz

Naturally, it's your layout. In general, though, even though I'm aware of the various discrepancies in older products and the improvements in new ones, I've tended not to buy the more expensive recent cars (unless it's a prototype I really want, like something I frequently see when I'm out railfanning).

There are several reasons for this. One is that at normal layout viewing distances, it's hard to tell the difference between a superdetailed recent car and an older one, especially after Athearn greatly improved its paint in the 1990s. If you replace things like molded steps with A-Line, or paint truck frames, it gets even harder. I'm not one to pull out a car and admire its underbody detail, and even detailed-car urethane snobs like Bob Smaus admit they often don't add the underbody parts on urethane kits. My basic updates to bluebox include Kadee wheels, coupler pockets replaced with screw-mount and Kadees, and brake detail rearranged. When I get around to it, I do A-Line steps. I add A-Line steps almost always to Accurail cars and add Kadees and metal wheels.

There are a couple of other issues. One is that the more detailed cars are definitely more fragile, and ladders, grabs, brake wheels, etc will frequently come off, sometimes on their own. Steps will brake, and you have to replace them with A-line no matter what.

In addition, on an operating layout, there are so many other tasks -- decoders, scenery, wiring, track maintenance, operation, etc etc that you have to budget the relative amounts of time and money you spend on particular aspects. A $35 PS-1 is less important if you can get most of what you need by upgrading an Accurail for $20 -- or find one even less expensive at a swap meet.

jwb Wrote:....In addition, on an operating layout, there are so many other tasks -- decoders, scenery, wiring, track maintenance, operation, etc etc that you have to budget the relative amounts of time and money you spend on particular aspects....

Jwb makes some good points. Unless you enjoy upgrading low cost (or even expensive) rolling stock with better details, as do I, much of what's available requires little to make it useable. My must-dos are Kadee couplers and perhaps some weathering, and I don't even bother to change wheels unless the original ones are faulty.
Beyond that, A-Line (or scratchbuilt) stirrup steps give a good visual return for not too much time or money, but most other "upgrades" are primarily for your own self-satisfaction. And, be warned: one foray into adding free-standing grabirons or more detailed brake gear often leads to a "need" to bring all the other cars up to the same standard. It can be enjoyable work, but it also eats time voraciously.

Wayne

Good point, Wayne. I was happy with "blue box" kits until I started doing HOn3. At first, I was annoyed with how intricate the HOn3 kits were, but now I appreciate the finer detail and want some of that on my standard gauge cars. But, I am unwilling to take the time of adding all that to my entire fleet. I think a good compromise would be just to replace the stirrups, upgrade the wheels if necessary, perhaps some work on roof walks if they are noticeably thick, and weathering. I've done a few Tyco/LifeLike cars that way, and I think just those simple things vastly improved the appearance. Schraddel - sounds like you have graduated to a step beyond this approach. I'm sure your old cars will find a welcome new home

Another factor I forgot to mention in my earlier post is simply sentimental and possibly nostalgia value. For reasons I can't fully explain, I really enjoy watching the older plastic cars -- I can identify Varney/Life Like, Tyco, Mantua, AHM, Bachmann, and bluebox on his layout -- running in Ralph's videos. For the same reason, I like to see such cars on some of the well-publicized top-level layouts in the mags, like Allen McClelland's, Jim Providenza's, etc.

Some of the factors that may contribute to this are the idea that none of these cars is straight from the box -- all these guys are doing things with them. I like to see that evidence of effort.

While it's generally easier to build new roofwalks from strip styrene, an autobody file is a good tool for thinning those overly thick ones which were at one time so common. Of course, the mounting posts will need to be trimmed off first, then the holes in the roof plugged with styrene rod. Once you've thinned the roofwalk (they often break during the thinning process, but they can be easily cemented back together), you'll probably want to add free-standing corner grabs....Oh! Oh!....here we go, down that slippery slope.

Wayne

Some of my old toytrain stuff was extensive rebuilt:


This was initially one of those high riding toy cars of unknown origin with truck mounted talgo style X2F couplers and moulded grab irons and steps.
The whole car was lowered (app. 4mm) for not sitting so high on the trucks. The missing end beams were scratch built, Kadee couplers and boxes and Kadee wheels mounted. The moulded grab irons were scraped off and repladed by ones scratch made out of brass wire.


The result coupled with an P2K gondola of similar type.


Two tank cars in rebuilding.



Of course such upgraded cars will stay on my roster.
But i am still the opinion my time is better invested in building those high grade kits, like Westerfield, P2K, Intermountain, as in further rebuilding old Blue Box stuff.

My 2 €ents

Lutz

In my case I want running equipment on a temporary layout that can survive the somewhat rough handling of a 9 y.o. boy.
I have a couple of bulkhead flatcars that will need attention to be returned to service standard as well as broken Kadee compatible couplers on other equipment. Which would you rather see damaged, a car from a train set or the $10 to $15 car from the second hand shelves at the LHS or a $50 Walthers Platinum Line car. Now remember that I want to include my son in my hobby activity not to exclude him as I only get one weekend a fortnight with him.
If he wants to string together an incredibly long train running on Bachmann EZ Track all over the lounge room floor and some things get broken, well so be it.
I would rather we get to play trains together, be they HO scale or the G scale Toy Xmas Train or the Lego Lone Ranger Train Set because he is playing trains with me as well as using his hands and imagination and not just sitting in front of the tv or a computer all day.
Now I full well appreciate the time and effort that can go into a highly detailed model but sometimes we just have to go with good enough or even near enough.
Mark

Lutz, I think that you should add coupler lift rods yet, a little work only but they are looking good.

The only thing I'll say about coupler lift bars is that they're absolutely the first thing that will catch on clothing. You may not think this could happen, but believe me, it will, and when it catches, a lot of other bad things happen. Many superdetail items are good if the model is in a glass case, but when you operate, they cause real problems. It's worth pointing out that there's a reason so many superdetailed models appear only on hotel linen at prototype modeler meets.

There's no reason why a well-detailed car need be overly fragile: anyone capable of adding the detail is capable of handling them properly, and most added detail can still be fairly sturdily built.
As for children, most above the age of 3 can be made aware of what may be touched and what must not be touched. Especially for younger children, there should, of course, be touchable stuff available, but there's nothing wrong with having a few simple rules to maintain decorum yet not stifle the pleasure.

Wayne

jwb Wrote:The only thing I'll say about coupler lift bars is that they're absolutely the first thing that will catch on clothing. You may not think this could happen, but believe me, it will, and when it catches, a lot of other bad things happen. Many superdetail items are good if the model is in a glass case, but when you operate, they cause real problems. It's worth pointing out that there's a reason so many superdetailed models appear only on hotel linen at prototype modeler meets.

jwb, I'm not your opinion.
All my scratchbuilt and all reworked models did receive coupler lift rods, with the exception of very early rebuilt models. And never I have had lost or destroyed lift rods. Ok, these parts are often one of last parts which I add on models while process of rebuilding. And yes, they are fine and fragile but relatively shielded parts and also the thin wire that I use gives not a ground for an immoderate strain.
I have many more problems with stirrups on industrial modeled cars. They go lost, they break, they were bent by relatively ordinary handling, however then I replace them and most at whole car by metal stirrups which I set into predrilled holes of body. And this was the last time that I have had problems, in absolutely most cases.

I will add a picture, that I posted in last WPF thread already.



What should get a damage here? They were very close modeled after an original picture. I can not find a reason for omiting of these parts. I think that such fine and solid modeled parts give a model its very specific look and they should differ a reworked or scratchbuilt model from industrial models - and that also with expansive prices yet.

Here's my take. The discussion so far is covering only the modeler himself and children. There are other options, like adult visitors, either individually, as part of operating groups, or during layout open houses. I used to do layout open houses, but have given it up as not worth the trouble, in part because visitors would wear jackets and backpacks, and you've got to ask them to remove those before they come in. This was SOP, at least among the more experienced layout owners in my area. A backpack in a layout aisle is, of course, a good way to sweep clean layout areas behind the goofball who's wearing it, as he suddenly turns to watch the train go by. A jacket is nearly as bad, as it will catch on rolling stock, trees, telephone poles, etc. That is the highest risk situation, but let's move to others.

Let's just take long sleeves among ordinarily attentive visitors, possibly including an operating group. Especially if the visitors are authorized to touch or get near rolling stock, such as while uncoupling, long sleeves will also catch on things. John Allen had a rule that only he touched equipment, which may sound fussy, but the more you deal with these situations, the better you understand the potential problems. But I've had problems with my own long sleeves, either during actual operation or during maintenance.

On the brass car above, naturally I admire the detail and workmanship, but I would really hesitate to use a car like that in operation, for several reasons. First, the air hoses, especially rigid metal ones, do in fact interfere with coupler operation. I say this from experience and do not use them. If you are just manually putting a train together and running it as a unit, it's less of a problem, but for actual operation involving regular coupling and uncoupling at magnets or with barbecue sticks, it's a problem. I say this only from experience and as a matter of preference.

Second, any projecting piece of wire is a problem, due to the long sleeve situation and the fact that hands will in fact get close to equipment during operation. I agree that wire in itself isn't necessarily fragile, but the actual issue again is long sleeves, coupler wands, etc, catching on them and causing a trip to the floor. On the brass car, I see several of those, as well as the metal air hose. That car is simply a display item in my book, a very nice one, but steht zur Vitrine. Your results may vary.

There are various ways to get around all this, including plexiglass barriers on the sides of the layout to prevent either wayward arms, clothing, etc, or to keep equipment from falling. My own preference is in general to have a clear idea of what the layout is for in relation to my own parameters of amusement. This includes minimizing risks, problems, maintenance issues, etc in the level of detail I add to rolling stock.

I don't think it should be controversial to say that there's operating stock and display stock.

jwb Wrote:..... John Allen had a rule that only he touched equipment, which may sound fussy, but the more you deal with these situations, the better you understand the potential problems.

While I don't have an operatiing group or open house sessions, that's pretty-much the rule here, too. I do make some exceptions for regular visitors, and especially for my grandkids, but they are aware of what they're allowed to touch and what's off-limits.

jwb Wrote:....But I've had problems with my own long sleeves, either during actual operation or during maintenance....

Me, too, on occasion, but if I built it, I can fix it, too.

Just last night, in a rush to get something non-train-related from under the layout, I neglected to turn on the room lights and then stepped too widely to avoid tripping over my compressor (normally not in the layout room). My sleeve, mid-arm, caught on the crane runway behind the Lowbanks Shops. As you can see, it's right on the aisle and is probably the spot on the layout which concerns me most when visitors are here:



The styrene end column on the near runway was snapped off at mid-point, also breaking the column's lateral bracing and that between it and the next column, too. The styrene collector rails for the crane's electrical power also broke-off at the adjacent column and the runway girder, also styrene, and the rail (steel) were bent severely outward. Fortunately, the crane itself didn't drop. I may take a picture of the damage, but the runway girder and steel rail have already been straightened, so it doesn't look all that damaged. I haven't checked yet, but there may be other items, all styrene likely, which could have been melted by verbal response to my own carelessness.

jwb Wrote:...My own preference is in general to have a clear idea of what the layout is for in relation to my own parameters of amusement. This includes minimizing risks, problems, maintenance issues, etc in the level of detail I add to rolling stock.

I don't think it should be controversial to say that there's operating stock and display stock.

I agree, and that's why I consider nothing on my layout to be display stock - especially for myself. For visitors, though, much of it should be considered non-touchable. If anything needs breaking, I can handle that.

Wayne

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Should we really discuss about details or not details on toy train stuff for kid's usage?

O.K. we, you and me are all children, big grown up adult kids still playing with trains.
But...

We have learned to handle our equipment safely. May it be sharp knives, hot soldering irons, fast rotating tools, electric voltage and other stuff. All such things we have to protect our children from harm and danger.
And we learned even to handle our stock without destroying it. Fine models never intended for kids with their often awkward hands. Their motor skills are simply not fully developed.
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For that reason it will be better to give them a Thomas The Tank Engine Set and they will love it.

But not the fine scale fine detailed models as we like them. Not until the kids have learned to handle them in a safe manner without damaging them.

That are my 2 €ent. If i have offended somebody, i beg your pardon please.

Lutz