So my last plan for a proto-freelance Central Florida HO layout has failed to ignite me. I think partly because I felt I was following a trend of that scene and repeating what others had done could be somehow easier as there were models to model. It's nice but I'm not sure it's for me.

Trawling my saved bookmarks and youtube favourites I found I really enjoyed those based on the CSAO lines in Southern New Jersey. Particularly trains out of Millville running mixed CSX, NS or even yet-to-be-painted old Conrail locomotives.

The traffic is low and slow, the trains haul small numbers of cars and I liked the New England area. There aren't a lot of businesses still taking rail services but I'm happy to mix industries that did at one point with those that do, in my layout time of 2007ish or currently. What I am struggling with is that I have the space for a shelf switching layout 9ft x 9ft x 18" wide on two walls and an extension of 5ft x 12" wide making a truncated C or U design. But the prototype industries are quite spaced out and typically a single spur off the "main" quite often ending up curving 90 degrees to the main.

So i feel my options are -

Imagine a small industrial park or industries that are in close proximity.
Pros: I can make them fit
Cons: although I can model each industry prototype together they wouldn't be prototypical. Would I loose the feel of the prototype? What design attributes would identify the layout as in South New Jersey? Street running or close by road, trees, semi-rural?

Model a single industry
Pros: prototypical and would fit my space
cons: most industries are single spur and the most varied of traffic seems to be lumber yards taking center beams and boxcars in single numbers. Wouldn't be best use of my space and I feel would not offer the amount of modelling and operation variety I'm after.

Look further afield.
Pros: unknown depending upon what I find:-)
Cons: analysis paralysis?

Other options?

I'm worried I'm trying to fit a prototype into my space that will not result in a satisfying build or layout to operate.

I'd really like some advice, thoughts or a reality check;-)

Here are some of the locations I've been investigating -

Collection of businesses
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://goo.gl/maps/O0lI9">http://goo.gl/maps/O0lI9</a><!-- m -->

Glass manufacturer, interesting to model the buildings but they seem to only take sand in covered hoppers.
537 Crystal Ave, Vineland, NJ 08360, USA
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://goo.gl/maps/DsDTw">http://goo.gl/maps/DsDTw</a><!-- m -->

RFC Container Co
30 Maple Ave, Cedarville, NJ 08311, United States
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://goo.gl/maps/RvnsL">http://goo.gl/maps/RvnsL</a><!-- m -->

Extech Building Materials
385 Asbury Rd, Farmingdale, NJ 07727, United States
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://goo.gl/maps/RiYzY">http://goo.gl/maps/RiYzY</a><!-- m -->

Builders General
222 Throckmorton St, Freehold, NJ 07728, United States
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://goo.gl/maps/i98pI">http://goo.gl/maps/i98pI</a><!-- m -->

Many thanks,

Steve.

A 2 industry layout could also work. I envision building a layout down the road with 2 industries, a furniture company and a food processor.

The furniture plant would have:

Inbound loads would be box cars (hardware, lumber, stuffing, fabric, pipe), flat cars(lumber, pipe), steel coil loads (sheet steel for furniture framework), gondolas (wire cables), tank cars (glue, lacquer and paint).

Outbound loads would be box cars (furniture), gondolas (scrap), and covered hoppers (saw dust bound for meat packers).

The food processor would have:

Inbound loads would be box cars (packaging), tank cars (cooking oils, sweeteners, preservatives), covered hoppers (flour, sugar, preservative, GERN additives), reefers (produce, meats).

Outbound loads would be reefers and RBL cars (perishable food products) and box cars of non perishable foods.

Steve,

I am familiar with the CSAO operation at Millville. In 2007 the yard at Millville had seven tracks in operation, at present there are three plus the main. The main is used as the arrival- departure track and the interchange with the Winchester and Western RR, which is their biggest customer. To the best of my knowledge in 2007 they had Progresso Foods, outgoing RBL boxcars, Kimble Glass, incoming hoppers usually two or three, Safeway Freezer and another cold storage facility which saw quit a few incoming mechanical reefers and refrigerator cars, RFC Container, incoming boxcars and the interchange of cars for the WW. Present day there may be an occasional car for Progresso, one or two hoppers for Gerrescheimer Glass(Kimble), several reefer cars per week for Safeway and cars for RFC Container. WW is still their biggest customer with probably 90% of the cars going to them. CSAO mainly uses GP38-2's and 40-2's from CSX and NS, in 2007 you saw the locos still in Conrail paint but patched for either CSX or NS.
CSAO would operate MI-21 out of the Millville yard to serve its customers on the Vineland Secondary and Vineland Industrial track, which was a run of about seven miles one way. They would make up their consist in the yard and then depart with locos on both ends of the train as there was no runaround in Vineland. The same engines would be used during the night as MI-61 which was the transfer of cars to Camden and then return with cars for Millville and the WW.
As far as modeling this all their customers except Progresso are on the Vineland Industrial Track. Safeway could be a background flat with a siding capable of holding several cars. They only have one door for unloading. RFC Container is on a curved siding with a covered dock on the left side of the building(as I remember it) could be scratched or a kitbashed Walthers Lakeville warehousing kit. Kimble/Gerresheimer would probably have to be scratch built, the hoppers go inside a gated area at the plant. I believe if you do the Vineland Industrial you would have to include the turnout onto the VIT from the Vineland Secondary and the diamond off of the VIT that crosses the VS to get to the glass plant. I tried to include some photos of the area but the computer is not allowing me to access my external harddrive. If you look at Google Maps Vineland,NJ the area of Park Ave and NE Blvd you will see this.
Another thing for your consideration is that the Winchester and Western gets a lot of hoppers for the glass plants it services in Millville and ships out sand in hoppers. It also receives tank cars for storage which generates a lot of traffic. Also during the corn harvest season they ship out grain cars as needed sometimes up to eighty cars.
I forgot to mention that CSAO also service Espoma a fertilizer plant in Millville which is on a siding off of the Millville yard, they get covered hoppers.

Bruce

Thanks Mike. I could go completely freelance and add industries that have reasonable in and out bound cars but I wanted to have some clear sources to draw on. Maybe I need to set the layout in NJ but use prototype industrues from elsewhere. Two industries with a team or transload would be exactly the amount I was after actually.

Thanks Bruce that's very useful. I've recognised most of what you wrote and have seen the diamond and track that allows a train from Millville yard to service the glass plant. Given my board dimensions I can't model that in the way it was intended to be used though I could mirror it so the train can go east to the glass plant. I like the glass plant as a proposition to scratch build but it doesn't offer a lot of operation for the space it would take up. Maybe I need to research other glass plants and adapt it to provide better operational interest.

I've b en given a link to a 1996 Conrail ZTS document which looks interesting. I need to look at that better and match it to what you've to,d me and googke can show me.

I guess that's the crux of my problem. Given my board limits I can't model any combination of businesses where their location relationships are any reflection on reality. The best I can do is model each individually as best I can and arrange them with the distance compressed as well as their locations and physical relationships altered to fit on my layout space.

Since you know the area what would you say was essential to reproduce to get that Vineland or even general NJ feel?

Thanks,

Steve

Steve,

If your going to freelance, Durand Glass in Millville which is now also part of Gerrescheimer and switched by the Winchester and Western usually gets seven covered hoppers per day and is serviced six days a week. The hoppers contain silica sand, soda ash, lime and dolomite and must be spotted in a specific order they get from the plant foreman. They can spend an hour or two just switching this plant.
I still can't access my pictures but if you access Google or Bing maps in Millville locate Wade Blvd and Rt 49 and follow Wade Blvd south you will find the Durand glass plant.

Bruce

bdw9535 Wrote:Steve,

If your going to freelance, Durand Glass in Millville which is now also part of Gerrescheimer and switched by the Winchester and Western usually gets seven covered hoppers per day and is serviced six days a week. The hoppers contain silica sand, soda ash, lime and dolomite and must be spotted in a specific order they get from the plant foreman. They can spend an hour or two just switching this plant.
I still can't access my pictures but if you access Google or Bing maps in Millville locate Wade Blvd and Rt 49 and follow Wade Blvd south you will find the Durand glass plant.

Bruce

Thanks Bruce. I might cast my prototype net wider than Vineland to see what I might be able to work into a design given my space limits.

I found this video of WW switching Durand Glass <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://youtu.be/SoBUarNOtKs">http://youtu.be/SoBUarNOtKs</a><!-- m -->

Steve - go look at Jack Hills New Castle Industrial RR. It will give you reasonable length switching with two spurs in the same plant+ a transload spur

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://oscalewcor.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/NCIR%20OPERATIONS">http://oscalewcor.blogspot.co.uk/search ... OPERATIONS</a><!-- m --> - It is O scale but will shrink to about half that in HO or around a third in N scale You can always add an extra industry if you have the room, and the washed out bridge truncating the branch is a reason for the size of trains

I live in Hainesport, and I work in Glassboro, so I'm semi familiar with the area and some of CSAO's operations.

A good candidate for your concerns is the Pemberton Inustrial Track. Only 2 industries on the whole line are outside of the Hainesport Industrial park, and for modelling purposes, I feel that the industrial park makes a very easy, fairly compact prototype to work with. Of those 2, Roosevelt paper is very close to the industrial park. I should note that it is NOT on the ZTS charts, but its there, I pass it almost every day.

In 2007, the trains still went down to the Mt. Holly Yard to run around. I took this video that year, to give you an idea of the kind of train that runs on it.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://youtu.be/ws45TeWyJNk?list=UUvGd9yi7CtXklbVX83wJYXg">http://youtu.be/ws45TeWyJNk?list=UUvGd9 ... bVX83wJYXg</a><!-- m -->


The main Industries and the kinds of traffic are-

Atlantic Wood (east of Hainesport Industrial park):

"Inbound"- Log Bunk Bulkhead Flat cars with long logs
"outbound"- Centerbeam flats, loaded with pressure treated plywood.

Municipal Waste (this later became part of the Hainesport Industrial railroad)

- Large gondolas for construction waste, Articulated trash container flat cars

Gallo Wine-

60' Insulated boxcars, similar to the type sold by Eel River Models

Doolan Steel (it may have another name now)

Occasional- Steel coil cars, heavy duty flat cars with massive industrial steel part loads (I just saw a big depressed-center flat car on this train the other night).

Roosevelt Paper (just west of the Hainesport Industrial park)

Newsprint boxcars, typically waffle sided, or 50' High Cube boxcars.

Mt. Holly Team Track

usually boxcars or gondolas. The Mount Holly Team track was removed with the Mount Holly Yard, but it was still in service in 2007. I would pass the Mount Holly yard on my way to school, and a box car or two would be parked next to the ramp.



Doolan Steel, Gallo Wine, and the Municipal Waste industries are all right next to each other in a pretty tight space. Roosevelt paper is very close (you can see this with Bing Maps). Atlantic wood and the Mt. Holly yard are east of Hainesport, but they're the only areas that are kind of out of the way (this is the reason Mt. Holly Yard was closed roughly around 2008-2009).

For modeling purposes, the distance between the Hainesport and Mount Holly could be compressed, since the only major visual land marks in this area is a trestle over the south branch of the Rancocas creek, and the Route 541 Bypass grade crossing.

Here is a ZTS chart of the Hainesport Industrial track. TO the "left" of the map, approximately where the "break" is, is where Roosevelt Paper is located. You can see this with google earth.

Tracks 791 and 792 are Doolan Steel

Track 795 is Gallo Wine

Track 799 is the Municipal Waste loading area.

Tracks 793, 794, 796, and 798 are either removed or buried.



Here is the ZTS chart for the area east of Hainesport. Almost all of this was in operation during 2007.

805 has been removed for some time

807 is Atlantic Wood

All the yard tracks were functional until they abandoned it a few years ago.

shortliner Wrote:Steve - go look at Jack Hills New Castle Industrial RR. It will give you reasonable length switching with two spurs in the same plant+ a transload spur

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://oscalewcor.blogspot.co.uk/search/label/NCIR%20OPERATIONS">http://oscalewcor.blogspot.co.uk/search ... OPERATIONS</a><!-- m --> - It is O scale but will shrink to about half that in HO or around a third in N scale You can always add an extra industry if you have the room, and the washed out bridge truncating the branch is a reason for the size of trains

Thanks. I've looked at Jack's blog and that has been of great interest. He effectively has three industries and that's plenty for me. I guess I'm hesitant to go completely freelance and not have a the air of authenticity I feel I need to keep me interested and not leave me concerned I'm building a fake. That's not to day a freelance layout can't be authentic or interesting. It's just recognising my lack of knowledge of North American railroad, and not being able to railfan to gather details, that I need to fill that personal lack with a prototype to keep me "keeping it real" to coin a phrase.

It's probably just a confidence thing that I need to get over.

Anyway I do appreciate the nudge to look at Jack's work again and think.

Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:Here is a ZTS chart of the Hainesport Industrial track. TO the "left" of the map, approximately where the "break" is, is where Roosevelt Paper is located. You can see this with google earth.

Thank you and I really appreciate the time you took to post that. I had looked at Hainsport as there was a thread on here that had looked into it for someone's layout planning. Your video is in my YouTube favourites so thanks for posting that. Those extended top gons are nice.

It certainly has a lot of possibilities and hits a couple of my favourite car types. I'll invest some more time looking over the park.

I can't thank those who have posted enough for their time. I hope I can return the favour in some way in the future.

Kind regards,

Steve

In terms of being worried about few industries no being enough, I recommend that you read Trevor Marshall's blog at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://themodelrailwayshow.com/cn1950s/">http://themodelrailwayshow.com/cn1950s/</a><!-- m -->. Scroll to the bottom and you will be able to select categories like prototype or operations.

Trevor has also compiled what he calls "Achievable Layouts": <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://themodelrailwayshow.com/cn1950s/?page_id=3063">http://themodelrailwayshow.com/cn1950s/?page_id=3063</a><!-- m -->. These are prototypes from various locations that he feels would make a satisfying model railway.

I hope this helps inform your thinking on how a simpler layout can still be interesting.

Andrew

MasonJar Wrote:In terms of being worried about few industries no being enough, I recommend that you read Trevor Marshall's blog at <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://themodelrailwayshow.com/cn1950s/">http://themodelrailwayshow.com/cn1950s/</a><!-- m -->. Scroll to the bottom and you will be able to select categories like prototype or operations.

Trevor has also compiled what he calls "Achievable Layouts": <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://themodelrailwayshow.com/cn1950s/?page_id=3063">http://themodelrailwayshow.com/cn1950s/?page_id=3063</a><!-- m -->. These are prototypes from various locations that he feels would make a satisfying model railway.

I hope this helps inform your thinking on how a simpler layout can still be interesting.

Andrew

I must agree with Andrew. We totally overthink our needs for industries. Think about it, do you seriously think you'll be regularly switching dozen of industries every week, for several hours in a row? Probably not.

You could model half Hainesport industrial park and have enough on your plate for years to come. When I first stumbled on Trevor's work a few years ago, I had my doubts, but after many experiments, I can say going simple is far to be simplistic or not enough. When you break down railroad operation, you find out any normal customer is more than just pulling loaded and empties. That was really a turning point and it freed me from my worst design fears.

Our club layout fills two rooms (about 18ft x 28ft) and have only 3 industries. A typical layout this size would probably have 15 to 20 industries. One of our club member can spend hours switching and he doesn't waste his time trying to be "prototypical". In fact, reducing drastically the number of industry helped us to reproduce them in all their glory.

And don't worry, I also had my moments when I thought OH NO, I can't use my gondolas, my reefers, my grain hoppers, etc... A team track in the middle of nowhere took those worries away. This team track serves 4 "ghost" customers on irregular schedule, according to our fancies. Better with an industrial park setting, it is just the normal way to handle a lot of traffic.

Also, going that way saves you lots of money on useless track, turnouts and structures (I truly wish I had found about it sooner). You can't serve two masters, better focus on something and do it right. It also means you have a more balanced schedule between running trains and building the layout.

At some point, try things out in real: a few tracks, a few cars, a loco and experiment settings. It's far better than wasting precious time in front of a screen, drawing 100 versions of the same utopia and reading dozens of contradicting comments. Model railroading takes a LOT of time, a lot of precious time. Many of us here have beeing doing it for decades and are far from the goal (if there's truly one!!!).

Don't be discouraged. I think you have already many good ideas, choose the best and go forward...

Best regards!

Matt

Thanks Matt and Andrew. I am sold on the simple track plan believe ME. I may not have come across that I am but two industries and a tram track is what I'm after. I have bought some cheap set track and flex track to try out some smile plans for the space. I work in IT web industry but I have seriously struggled with imagining a drawn design to its reality at HO size.

The crux of my issue ( in my head, one of many no doubt) is of modelling some part of reality so that it is recognisable as that. Be it true to prototype or proto-free,ance. All my previous work has been micro layouts from imagination based in England. So I was gravitating towards modelling true to prototype as a way to ensure I got an authentic look from track plan, operation and scenary. I think I just need to read, absorb and maybe try a few modelling exercises to replicate what I see.

Thanks again for the support and encouragement.

Steve