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+--- Thread: GEC's Layout Progress (/showthread.php?tid=108)
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - ac_catenary - 06-04-2010
Cab: I run live catenary with DCC. Im thinking that im going motorize one and keep the other as trailer car and they will permantly be coupled, therfore I would need to put LED headlights and LED taillights on one end of each car all controlled by one decoder. Ive done this before to metroliner sets and a Kitbashed silverliner IV set. Its just a pain to drill the holes for the LEDS on IHP bodies and there is a monster pillar in the Silverliner IV to deal with when wiring. What would really be cool if I wire them for sound. I got a loksound in my acela in feburary and its addictive.. Not to mention slow speed performance and constant speed technology.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Green_Elite_Cab - 06-04-2010
As usual, Madness occurs whenever i try to paint anything. I got Conrail 4465 mostly decaled and painted, but all sorts of nonsense occured. Long story short, the model is just fine, just needs a gloss coating the seal it in. the bad news is that once again, dust attacks. I probably should have just sealed it yesterday, but i've been holding out to make sure i have all the decals placed properly. Fortuneately, none of the dust is in the paint, its just formed on the model. A quick brushing should solve this, but i'm hoping i get it all.
Like my earlier C32-8 project, the E44s all had slightly different variations in placement of things, particularly with the warning stickers. For example, #4456 has all the markings, sand fills, fire-extinguishers, and other warnings. (and now that i know Champs has them i will be ordering more sets to cover my existing E44s and E33s).
On the other end of the spectrum, photos of #4457 have almost NONE of the warning stickers, either having been weathered away, or removed.
#4465 has an interesting mix of decals for it, as it still retained its PRR cab-sides (gold numbers and "Radio Equipped" decals) all the way until it went to Amtrak. before that, the only differences from the PRR paint was the PC and later CR patches. The problem is that no one appears to have a photo of this unit from the long hood, and few show the details of the paint job.
One intersting thing to note is that unlike the GG1s and other PRR electrics, ALL E44s were painted black, not brunswick green. This was PRR's decision, and i can't remember exactly why (may have been a cost thing). That said, it appears some E44s never got repainted or cleaned (only patched), all the way to the scrap yard.
THere is always good news though!
I tested my 4457 with the Tomar shoes at the club yesterday, and it ran perfectly, with no more hestiation. The other night, it did that weird humming-buzzing issue i may have mentioend a few months back, but this appears to be grealty reduced. It may have alwasy been a connectivity issue (the tracks i first tested on turned out to need more cleanign then i initially noticed). I might go for advice next week to my local hobby shop, but for now, i'm happy that it ran flawlessly for a full night at the club. I've already installed these shoes on my other two E44A models, and once i get DCC in them, i think they will run fine. This will please me since i really wanted to triple head these models during show season.
ac_catenary Wrote:Cab: I run live catenary with DCC. Im thinking that im going motorize one and keep the other as trailer car and they will permantly be coupled, therfore I would need to put LED headlights and LED taillights on one end of each car all controlled by one decoder. Ive done this before to metroliner sets and a Kitbashed silverliner IV set. Its just a pain to drill the holes for the LEDS on IHP bodies and there is a monster pillar in the Silverliner IV to deal with when wiring. What would really be cool if I wire them for sound. I got a loksound in my acela in feburary and its addictive.. Not to mention slow speed performance and constant speed technology.
I don't have problems drilling holes (I just make sure i drill them straight). The hard part is getting the light in there. This is why i use Fiber Optics. Its annoying and ineffective to just wedge an LED in there, but you could definitely thread some scale thickness fiber Optic around that pillar. I mount the LEDs in a tube (don't glue, just make the tube long enough the the LED to sit inside without slipping out to easily), and on the other end i put a styrene plate. In the center of that plate (relative to the LED) i drill a few holes that are the diameter of the fiber optic, and thread them in so that the tips face the LED. I then glue with something that won't harm or eat the fiberoptic, and then i'm pretty much set.
A soldering iron, glass plate and a VERY sharp razor (you need the cleanest slice possible) should pretty much be all you need to form the fiber-optic into what you need.
To be honest though, i still think it would be worth it to do each car individually and just consist them. It can't hurt to have the extra flexibility, and its only two models (if you had a huge fleet, that would make sense). As far as sound goes, you let me know when you get MU sounds, that is interesting.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Green_Elite_Cab - 06-15-2010
Well, i got my E44A 4465 painted and decaled, just needs number boards. I'm doing a little work on 4456, the blue E44A, only because i think i can improve the paint, and i have additional decals to add to it (such as the sand fill and fire extinguisher stickers). those additional stickers are usually backed by highly visible read fields with the white letters over them, so i figure they would be good to add.
All the E44s also have DCC in them now, and they appear to work OK. i'm having some problems with the crossovers on the club's layout, not doubt due to the ridiculous power pick-up setups, so i'm going to have find a way to pick power up on the opposite sides of the trucks as well. they can pull a relatively heavy train all together, so it doesn't seem bad (it had about 11 coal cars filled with actual crushed coal or so up a 4% grade, which is one of the heaviest trains on the layout).
I also bought a 2'X4' sheet of plywood to fiddle with. Not sure if i'll be building that addition just yet, but i just wanted to see what i can fit on a small piece of wood. It looks like i might buy a 4'x4' section to mate with my current layout, and use the 2'x4' as a little branches off from there.
I've hit a lull in the model building. Now that the E44s are taken care of, i really have no other projects that i want to work on other than the catenary, which i'll be getting back to soon. on that note, i found actual PRR papers on the catenary that give exact dimensions which are actually larger in some ways than what i built. That said, i went and sketched the structure to HO scale on a sheet of paper, but it didn't look right.
While the basic dimensions were the same (catenary height, cross-beam height, sag brace locations and height), the transmission and signal arms were both larger and spread farther apart than suggested in many of the catenary articles i've read, such as Andy Rubbo's three part series in the Keystone modeler. For example, the PRR document says that the transmission arms should be 18 feet across, while i think it is 13 feet in the Rubbo article. I wonder if it is because we often view the catenary from the ground, and not up close, appearing smaller, making the 13' distance appear more correct.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Gary S - 06-15-2010
Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:I've hit a lull in the model building. Now that the E44s are taken care of, i really have no other projects that i want to work on other than the catenary, which i'll be getting back to soon.
Looking forward to more progress on the catenary. Even though I would never attempt such a thing, it is fascinating to see your work and efforts in that area.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - ac_catenary - 06-23-2010
Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:While the basic dimensions were the same (catenary height, cross-beam height, sag brace locations and height), the transmission and signal arms were both larger and spread farther apart than suggested in many of the catenary articles i've read, such as Andy Rubbo's three part series in the Keystone modeler. For example, the PRR document says that the transmission arms should be 18 feet across, while i think it is 13 feet in the Rubbo article. I wonder if it is because we often view the catenary from the ground, and not up close, appearing smaller, making the 13' distance appear more correct.
I have the dimension PRR Standards got them from the ET department at work and I know I must have shared them with you. They are on the PRR electrics Yahoo Group and I recently gave a guy permission to put them on his site. That is why my transmission arms are bigger than Rubbos and Yours
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Green_Elite_Cab - 06-23-2010
weird, i tried building a mock up to see how it looked, and it still looked big. perhaps i got used to them being small. Then again, i'm sure there are variations out there.
***edit***
yet yours seem proportional. ugh, i hate it when my brain plays games with me.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - P5se Camelback - 06-23-2010
Ah ... GEC ... um ... it may only be mock-ups ... but you know what they say ...
:needpics: .....................
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Green_Elite_Cab - 06-25-2010
My other E44As. 4456 is going to be getting more decals, and 4465 is just about ready. both need number boards but that is it.
![[Image: 62410e44apaintedandothe.jpg]](http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6241/62410e44apaintedandothe.jpg)
![[Image: 62410e44apaintedandothe.jpg]](http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/6241/62410e44apaintedandothe.jpg)
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Puddlejumper - 06-26-2010
Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:One intersting thing to note is that unlike the GG1s and other PRR electrics, ALL E44s were painted black, not brunswick green. This was PRR's decision, and i can't remember exactly why (may have been a cost thing). That said, it appears some E44s never got repainted or cleaned (only patched), all the way to the scrap yard.
I was going to question this... but now I am starting to think that I have heard this somewhere before.... that these were the only locos built for the PRR after 1870 that weren't painted DGLE (or Tuscan for passenger). Do you have a source for this info? Perhaps it was a money saving venture, as DGLE had copper oxide in it, and of course black did not.
I'm still not sure though, since PRR received SD40s, SD45s, etc. after this, and they were all green.
The E44s also had bells recycled from scrapped steam locomotives.
EDIT. The PRRT&HS says DGLE was the color. I'm not sure where I read that about the E44s being black, maybe we saw it in the same place. Brunswick green is evidently just Black, with copper oxide added for longevity. The copper turns green as it ages, hence the green hue to the color.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - P5se Camelback - 06-26-2010
We used to joke in Philly that the way you mix Pennsy Brunswick Green is ...
Take one 55-gallon drum of black paint ...
Add one quart forest green paint ...
Stir ...
Voila! Pennsy Brunswick Green!
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Green_Elite_Cab - 06-26-2010
Puddlejumper Wrote:Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:One intersting thing to note is that unlike the GG1s and other PRR electrics, ALL E44s were painted black, not brunswick green. This was PRR's decision, and i can't remember exactly why (may have been a cost thing). That said, it appears some E44s never got repainted or cleaned (only patched), all the way to the scrap yard.
I was going to question this... but now I am starting to think that I have heard this somewhere before.... that these were the only locos built for the PRR after 1870 that weren't painted DGLE (or Tuscan for passenger). Do you have a source for this info? Perhaps it was a money saving venture, as DGLE had copper oxide in it, and of course black did not.
I'm still not sure though, since PRR received SD40s, SD45s, etc. after this, and they were all green.
The E44s also had bells recycled from scrapped steam locomotives.
EDIT. The PRRT&HS says DGLE was the color. I'm not sure where I read that about the E44s being black, maybe we saw it in the same place. Brunswick green is evidently just Black, with copper oxide added for longevity. The copper turns green as it ages, hence the green hue to the color.
I thought it said so in Pennsy Electric Pictorial, or Pennsy Electric Years but quickly paging through them i can't find the statement. I know i read it in a book, and it stated that the E44s received cheaper "Black" paint for exactly the reason you say so, the "Brunswick green" was expensive, among other reasons.
You're right, as far as i can tell, the diesels did get the green. I'm kinda angry now that i can't find it. cool facts on the bells! i should keep that in mind if i ever sound equip these things!
P5se Camelback Wrote:We used to joke in Philly that the way you mix Pennsy Brunswick Green is ...
Take one 55-gallon drum of black paint ...
Add one quart forest green paint ...
Stir ...
Voila! Pennsy Brunswick Green!
thats what they tell me!
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Puddlejumper - 06-28-2010
If you don't mind, GEC, since we're talking about Brunswick Green I thought you'd find this interesting. While researching the E44 on the PRRT&HS site I found this discussion... http://prrthsdiscussionweb30239.yuku.com/reply/447/t/Correct-Color-of-the-PRR-E44-Motors.html#reply-447
Quote:Okay, let me lay this one to rest. Way back in 1997-98, the PRRT&HS website was resurrected by Steve Agostini as the webmaster and myself as the "Superintendent". The late James Lynch, Vice President-Treasurer of the National PRRT&HS, was our 'Walking Encyclopedia". Besides articles, announcements and pictures, Steve and I also started "The Discussion Forum" where readers could post questions that the 3 of us could answer along with readers. While there might be disagreements, there were very few 'major' arguements.
One of the most asked questions was,is and always will be how did the PRR pick their colors. Stories such as "take a 50 gallon drum of black paint and throw a one gallon can of Buff Gold (or whatever) to make DGLE" OR "the paint shop Superintendent at Altoona mixed colors he liked in 1921 and that became DGLE" grew as Urban Legends.
So here's the 'Official' PRRT&HS (at least back in 1998) short answer as to DGLE that was researched by our historians and published on "The Discussion Forum":
"Brunswick Green takes its name from the Germany Duchy of Brunswick and refers to a green pigment made from copper salts which were used to extend the longevity of the finish. The name is just a direct translation from the German ("Braunschweiger Grun"), so that is where it originated.
DGLE (aka Brunswick Green) is black paint with the above mentioned copper salts added. The paint was given two coats of varnish to protect the shine and finish. As the varnish would age and/or break down (soot, etc.), the shine would fade after which the process of oxidation would take alter the finish. Remember, copper & oxygen = oxidation. Oxidized copper is green! The more the varnish faded, the more green the paint would appear to be. And of course, two freshly shopped identical engines coming from the same shop on the same day (having just received 'new varnish') would probably not have the same color one month later."
SPF stands for Slobbering Pennsy Fans. So all SPFs, please copy this.
BTW, the PRRT&HS drift cards are accurate. And Weaver's Scalecoat is thought by most as the most accurate reproduction of DGLE. But your engine might fade if you run a low grade of coal and allow the soot to stay on the paint.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - P5se Camelback - 06-28-2010
Hey, Cab ...
I'm lovin' that black diamond on the leading end!
And I appreciate that you run them as the prototype did ... pantograph to the rear! Always! And if an old PRR mP54 MU car (the old "Red Cars") had two Pantographs, the rear one was the one collecting power!
Keep up the nice work ... you remind me of where I grew up, and I don't get up there very much any more!
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Green_Elite_Cab - 06-28-2010
Puddlejumper Wrote:If you don't mind, GEC, since we're talking about Brunswick Green I thought you'd find this interesting. While researching the E44 on the PRRT&HS site I found this discussion... http://prrthsdiscussionweb30239.yuku.com/reply/447/t/Correct-Color-of-the-PRR-E44-Motors.html#reply-447
I don't mind at all! thats interesting. I think that most of these E44s appeared black to me though, so i'm not worried about it. they look right.
P5se Camelback Wrote:Hey, Cab ...
I'm lovin' that black diamond on the leading end!
And I appreciate that you run them as the prototype did ... pantograph to the rear! Always! And if an old PRR mP54 MU car (the old "Red Cars") had two Pantographs, the rear one was the one collecting power!
Keep up the nice work ... you remind me of where I grew up, and I don't get up there very much any more!
I assume you're referring to the SEPTA/Reading silverliner IV? Actually, i think that with a lot of the single armed electrics, they raised the pantograph in the direction of the "elbow". If you look at the E44s, and metroliners they raised to forward most pantograph. In fact, i think the official "front" of the Silverliner IV single IS the pantograph end.
That said, more often then not these days they stick to the rear, as they also did with the old P5s and GG1s (as well as others). I don't think the MP54s cars had double pantographs though.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - P5se Camelback - 06-28-2010
To be honest, I don't remember. It was long ago and far away, plus it was in the late sixties and early seventies anyway, and who remembers any of that? :mrgreen: