+- (https://bigbluetrains.com)
+-- Forum: Mainline (https://bigbluetrains.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=17)
+--- Forum: HO Modeling (https://bigbluetrains.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=21)
+--- Thread: GEC's Layout Progress (/showthread.php?tid=108)
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Green_Elite_Cab - 08-05-2011
I don't even know what to do with this all now. This layout is driving me insane. I'm starting to think i really do have to get rid of it, which is making me mad since I just rebuilt half of it. In fact, the entire hobby is making me bash my head against the wall.
The flex track has been somewhat effective at reducing electrical problems (I haven't yet soldered all feeders in, so it is understandable that some spots will be shaky until everything is set up properly). That said, I now have trains dieing in the DEAD CENTER of flex track sections. I haven't cleaned this track yet, but its brand new Nickel Silver, how dirty can it be? The other problem might be the locomotive wheels, but I've cleaned some of these locomotives CONSTANTLY and yet the locomotive dies just the same as it did on the spectacular sectional track. That isn't the end of it either. Some sections of the flex track on the curves had managed to become all sorts of kinks, being broader then tighter than the intended 18" radius (no room for anything bigger). This caused havoc with some of my 50' cars, especially one particular tank car that became damaged in the process of trying to roll through it. I can see that i'm going to need those metal radius gauges that help shape the flex track if i want to do this right.
Apparently, some of my freight cars with skinnier wheels (like Athearn Genesis) are falling into my crossover turnouts (which are Snap Switches). In particular, the parts where the diverging rail has a "cut" into side for the point to fit flush against the rail. as the right hand wheels fall inside the gauge of the track, it forces the left hand wheels up over the points, derailing the train. This had the added advantage of destroying the detail parts on one of my box cars.
Not surprisingly, the NMRA track gauge doesn't like this spot much either, but i have no idea how I'd fix this. I've already experimented with better switches like the Peco Mediums, but they are just to long between the frog and the points to fit in. If I used those switches, cut down to the minimum possible, I'd STILL have to rebuild the rest of my track. Not only would this make my existing catenary towers unusable (without rebuilding), but it would force me to rebuild quite a bit of my industrial park to. Much of that is already ballasted and more or less stuck as it is (especially considering that two of the turnouts are buried under hydrocal roadway).
Even after all of this frustration, I finally did get my trains running on the inner oval. After sorting out cars in my new yard, which thankfully works perfectly, I ran a few loops around the different sections of new track to make sure everything was solid. No problems other than those mentioned above, and so I went to go operate my industries. Again, frustration. I had conveniently forgotten that there is no easy way to switch it with anything bigger than a 44 tonner. God knows where my 44 tonner went to, because I couldn't find it. I don't think I've EVER lost a locomotive before, but i suppose there is a first time for everything. Its somewhere in my basement, I'm sure, but it wasn't on the shelf where i store it, so now that has me concerned.
I think my new Conrail SW can fit in there also, but that's changing how I operate the layout. I was really hoping I could stick to my Road switchers like my GP15-1 or RS2 to do this sort of work. The only way the layout can easily be switched is if I only switch a few cars at a time, or basically run 4 car trains with an SW sized locomotive. I thought i could get away with a 5 car train, but apparently I was wrong. The only way that could really be done is if I have my industrial switchers set all the cars on the industrial lead so that my Conrail freight can pick it up and keep going. There are plenty of complications with this sort of operation to, and I suppose at this point I had enough with all the problems and came up here to complain about them.
Once again, i'm trying to think if there is any way I can work with my available space to make a better layout. At this point, I'm almost willing to literally remove everything off the layout, all the way back down to bare plywood.
Before I do that, though, I'm thinking about adding on to my layout, by putting 1x6 boards around the perimeter, creating a 5x9 foot layout. At the very least, i could make some of my curves wider.
I don't know. Some say this is a learning experience, but shouldn't things be improving if I'm learning? It seems that the consequences for mistakes are far more persistent than any improvements I've incorporated into the layout.
faraway Wrote:Hurray!! Get the priorities right and do not worry about model railroading
Ralph Wrote:Congratulations and best wishes!
Ralph
Thanks guys! Its going to be a big change now. Its kinda depressing in a way, because there is now no doubt, I'm entering into a new stage of my life, and all those days of ample free time are rapidly coming to an end. Especially considering the program I picked to join, I'm now terrified of what sort of assignments they'll give me. The future is obscure and I don't know what to expect.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - MrBill - 08-07-2011
Something to be said for the guys who standardize all their track, wheelsets and such. I wonder about the quality of that flextrack though. I'm still using my old american made atlas flex that i collected a pile of years ago that works fine. Who knows what kind of crap goes into that chi-com stuff they sell now. Whatever brand, If it's kinking and carrying on as bad as you say, I'd take it back. This hobby isn't nearly as simple as some suspect. The last loop setup I did for the kids seemed to work fine at first. Then as I started throwing on different consists, it turned into derailing mess! Plus it was under an open beam ceiling in my garage. You can't believe the amount of invisible engine-jamming crud that rains down when you walk over it. Stapling up some fairly thick plastic (4 mil holds staples pretty well) can make a huge difference.
The 5x9 sounds like a good step. A 24" radius loop would really make a nice flow for your electric units.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Green_Elite_Cab - 08-07-2011
MrBill Wrote:Something to be said for the guys who standardize all their track, wheelsets and such. I wonder about the quality of that flextrack though. I'm still using my old american made atlas flex that i collected a pile of years ago that works fine. Who knows what kind of crap goes into that chi-com stuff they sell now. Whatever brand, If it's kinking and carrying on as bad as you say, I'd take it back. This hobby isn't nearly as simple as some suspect. The last loop setup I did for the kids seemed to work fine at first. Then as I started throwing on different consists, it turned into derailing mess! Plus it was under an open beam ceiling in my garage. You can't believe the amount of invisible engine-jamming crud that rains down when you walk over it. Stapling up some fairly thick plastic (4 mil holds staples pretty well) can make a huge difference.
The 5x9 sounds like a good step. A 24" radius loop would really make a nice flow for your electric units.
I wouldn't be so quick to trash china as i would be to seriously question my ability to lay flex track.
Oh sure, it seems simple enough, but we are talking tight radius. there is quite a bit of fight in the rails, which want to straighten out to some degree. Whats more, i may have imperfectly cut the the rails. I was trying to get the rails to fit in as close together as possible, and so perhaps there is an 1/16" of excess rail length that is not immediately apparent to me (after all, it is better to cut off to little than to much!). Any track, tangent or curved, is going to kink a little bit if you try to shove it into a space it cannot fit in.
This is yet another reason i wish i had a larger layout. If i were laying curves with a radius in the 30"s or upper 20"s, None of this would be a problem. But when 18" is the ABSOLUTE minimum for most modern HO equipment, there is a far less forgiving margin of error.
The last few days i was again looking at modifying my layout, not just by adding a few inches, but drastically changing the layout. This time however, I have a different plant. I may totally removed the mainlines, but keep the yard and industrial park. I will then let larger radius curves attach to these where convenient. In my mind, i could change my industrial park into a branch, and keep the yard area mostly intact. I'm away from my home computer right now, so it would be difficult for me to make a graphical representation (will probably pump out a quick mspaint sketch to give an idea.
will the plan ever gain traction? probably not. I think i average about 2 or three crazy plans to rebuild this layout every year, and until i rebuilt this yard, i haven't ever carried any of them out. Still, i think when i do find the right plan, I'll know it.
my other crazy plan is to literally cut apart the layout, removing the mainlines and taking a saber saw to the plywood. I could then keep my yard and industrial park, but build new bench-work in between to fit my space and give me superior curves. by separating them, i can put a real back drop behind it all, and so eliminated the need to "shield" the halves of the layout from each other.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Lester Perry - 08-07-2011
I have found that with flex track it is better to slide the movable rail about a foot to offset the joints. One rule with flex is to have the movable rail I believe on the outside. That one I disregard as my track is like a snake. As far as train stopping on clean track goes, two words CLIMATE CONTROL. humidity is your biggest enemy with this problem.Temperature changes will kink your track. These problems are common to the hobby and somewhat to 1: 1. Be patient and take on one problem at a time.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Green_Elite_Cab - 08-09-2011
I'll definitely have to give that a try next time, though i can't control humidity well in the basement.. I think I'm going to buy one of those metal gauges that go between the rails and make the flex track stay in radius.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Russ Bellinis - 08-09-2011
In one of Joe Fugate's clinics at the 2011 NMRA convention in Sacramento, he mentions that he uses mineral spirits after cleaning his track. He puts it on the rails very thin and wipes off the excess. He suggested an experiment to do if you doubt the use of a conducting lubricant. Run your locomotive on dry clean track in a dark room and watch the sparks between the wheels and the rails. Remember that every spark is putting a tiny pit in both the rail and the wheel. Then turn the lights on and put a thin coat of mineral spirits on the rails, shut off the lights and run it again. The sparks will disappear. I think this is the reason that the Wahl clipper oil works. The difference is that you can buy a gallon of mineral spirits at a big box home improvement store for the price of a pint of Wahl oil.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Green_Elite_Cab - 08-09-2011
Russ Bellinis Wrote:In one of Joe Fugate's clinics at the 2011 NMRA convention in Sacramento, he mentions that he uses mineral spirits after cleaning his track. He puts it on the rails very thin and wipes off the excess. He suggested an experiment to do if you doubt the use of a conducting lubricant. Run your locomotive on dry clean track in a dark room and watch the sparks between the wheels and the rails. Remember that every spark is putting a tiny pit in both the rail and the wheel. Then turn the lights on and put a thin coat of mineral spirits on the rails, shut off the lights and run it again. The sparks will disappear. I think this is the reason that the Wahl clipper oil works. The difference is that you can buy a gallon of mineral spirits at a big box home improvement store for the price of a pint of Wahl oil.
I remember seeing this somewhere else, but i remain skeptical.
At our club, a friend of mine tried to lubricate the inside-bearings of a single Amfleet car with Wahl Oil. It wasn't very long before his train was leaving a trail of it across our mainline. Pretty soon, NO train could make it up the steeper grades anywhere on the layout, even after constantly track cleaning and attempts to clean the wheels. This was especially bad because it shut us down early during the show season, and we had to drum up extra locomotives (and unusual consists!) to get the trains up the slick rails on the grades.
I recognize that my layout is flat and my trains short, but I feel uncomfortable with this technique, given the above expierience. Unless the mineral spirits aren't as slippery as the Wahl Oil, it seems like a bad plan.
Besides, i've only ever noticed excessive arcing on the old sintered wheels on some of my Athearn blue-box kits, and my American GK E60 electrics.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Justinmiller171 - 08-09-2011
Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:I don't even know what to do with this all now. This layout is driving me insane. I'm starting to think i really do have to get rid of it
Maybe you should build a shelf layout?
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Lester Perry - 08-09-2011
Justinmiller171 Wrote:Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:I don't even know what to do with this all now. This layout is driving me insane. I'm starting to think i really do have to get rid of it
Maybe you should build a shelf layout?
I agree, if you can do it a shelf layout is much better and easier to work with. If you want grades it is simple to do. If you are doing
grades open frame is the way to go
here is a pic of mine under construction so you can see what I mean by open frame and see how I used it.
![[Image: IMG_0020.jpg]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b254/lesterperry/construction/IMG_0020.jpg)
The track can go up and down as I please as can the scenery, buildings can be below track level.
![[Image: 100_0871.jpg]](http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b254/lesterperry/Scenes%20ie%20buildigs%20and%20towns/100_0871.jpg)
Just some food for thought
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Green_Elite_Cab - 08-09-2011
Lester Perry Wrote:Justinmiller171 Wrote:Maybe you should build a shelf layout?
I agree, if you can do it a shelf layout is much better and easier to work with. If you want grades it is simple to do. If you are doing
grades open frame is the way to go
here is a pic of mine under construction so you can see what I mean by open frame and see how I used it.
The track can go up and down as I please as can the scenery, buildings can be below track level.
Just some food for thought
That is my plan for any future layout I build. Ironically, the only reason I settled on this layout was because it was in a step by step book and my 14 year old self wanted a layout that would at least work operationally (I suppose if i used only the SW1 and 40' cars in 3 car trains featured on the cover, then it would). Based on my recently level of frustration, you can see how well that worked out.
I think the biggest frustration is building a layout that fits in my equipment in a realistic manner, particularly my electrics. The only place i can really run everything i want to is if i modeled the NEC between Union Interlocking in Rahway NJ and Waverly Yard in Newark NJ.
To put it bluntly, this is the busiest spot on the Northeast corridor. the NEC goes from 4 to 6 tracks at Union Interlocking, then continues into Linden where there was a HUGE GM bus and truck plant, as well as Merck. the Six roads continues until Elizabeth where it goes back to 4 tracks. However, Elizabeth is the site of the famous S-curve and the station over the CNJ mainline. Not far after that is Lane Interlocking, another major feature of the NEC (here, track 1 "flies over" the entrance to Waverly yard from Track 2).
It would be insane to model this all. I'm guessing I'll have to pic particular scenes and find a way to "separate" them realistically. Even with compression, these key scenes (Layout Design Elements?) will be large. I'm not sure even a module could really do it justice.
Other electrified routes are extremely limiting as to what can be run on them.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - tetters - 08-10-2011
Russ Bellinis Wrote:In one of Joe Fugate's clinics at the 2011 NMRA convention in Sacramento, he mentions that he uses mineral spirits after cleaning his track. He puts it on the rails very thin and wipes off the excess. He suggested an experiment to do if you doubt the use of a conducting lubricant. Run your locomotive on dry clean track in a dark room and watch the sparks between the wheels and the rails. Remember that every spark is putting a tiny pit in both the rail and the wheel. Then turn the lights on and put a thin coat of mineral spirits on the rails, shut off the lights and run it again. The sparks will disappear. I think this is the reason that the Wahl clipper oil works. The difference is that you can buy a gallon of mineral spirits at a big box home improvement store for the price of a pint of Wahl oil.
We use the clipper oil at the club. The track on the layout gets cleaned annually. We just go along with a bit of alcohol and rub it on the rail heads, then put a thin layer of the clipper oil on afterwards. I'm starting to use this method at home and finding out it works really well at keeping the track clean.
Just out of curiosity GEC? Have you run feeder wires to all of your track sections? Electrical is not my strong area however, I wonder if you are experiencing enough of a voltage drop when the train reaches the middle of the section to stall the loco?
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Green_Elite_Cab - 08-10-2011
tetters Wrote:We use the clipper oil at the club. The track on the layout gets cleaned annually. We just go along with a bit of alcohol and rub it on the rail heads, then put a thin layer of the clipper oil on afterwards. I'm starting to use this method at home and finding out it works really well at keeping the track clean.
Well, I suppose this method must have merit to it! I'll have to investigate further. It seems counter intuitive to put oil on the tracks.
Quote:Just out of curiosity GEC? Have you run feeder wires to all of your track sections? Electrical is not my strong area however, I wonder if you are experiencing enough of a voltage drop when the train reaches the middle of the section to stall the loco?
I did before i just ripped up the track. The only reason they aren't installed now is because I still have about 4 more sections of flex track to install (along the outside oval), and i wanted to get everything together before i started breaking out the soldering iron.
That said, in the location that the trains are stalling, there ARE feeders on one rail in the near by yard, which is attached to the Atlas switch that diverges off the main track (the problem track), so there is basically only one rail joiner joint between the track in question and its feeder. The layout was Common Rail wired back when I had DC, and the common rail feeder is also not very distant from that spot (though yes, it is on a different section that is electrically connected).
The only common denominator here though, is that its the same pieces of equipment stalling in the same places. The locomotives in question stalled in the same spots i'm having trouble with now, even when though that block was completely wired in before i installed the flex track (and it was a short block, only 3 or 4 sections of track soldered together). I strongly suspect something is up with this locomotive, so I'm going to have to investigate further. It won't surprise some to know its my Athearn Genesis GP15-1 with Sound. that one appears to be giving everyone grief in one form or another.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Russ Bellinis - 08-10-2011
Is the track where the problem occurs straight or curved? All locomotives need some sort of flexible pick up connection between the wheels and the decoder/motor to allow it to go around curves. I suspect that you may be losing contact somewhere in the electrical circuit as it goes around a curve.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - tetters - 08-10-2011
Sounds like a plan. Good Luck! I hope you find out what the problem is.
When using the clipper oil, you don't need a lot of it. The application on the rail heads is almost barely there if you get what I mean.
Re: GEC's Layout Progress - Lester Perry - 08-10-2011
When you said Atlas switch it threw up a red flag for me. Check continuity on all rails including the short pieces coming of of the frog. I no longer use Atlas switches as I have found them to be problematic with this.