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+--- Thread: Always Fixing Track? (/showthread.php?tid=1227)
Always Fixing Track? - RobertInOntario - 05-13-2009
Just curious if other folks find themselves continually fixing or at least having to improve their layout's track?
Back in the winter, my main 4x6 layout had a LOT of track problems. During Feb/Mar I managed to fix most of these and I hardly ever get any derailments now. However, I've also found that there are still several places where I can still improve it further. Again, the "trick" is to keep all track as flat as possible, especially turnouts.
I've noticed that most of my locos (especially my newer ones) will pass through the problematic turnouts with no problems so that gave me the illusion that my track was in good shape. But a few locos (mainly my older ones) will either hesitate or stall at the turnouts. So, during the past few days, I’ve managed to make the turnouts even “flatter” and there has been a definite improvement.
[My layout has had so many uneven areas for several reasons -- the main one is that I’ve tweaked and changed the track layout so much (this has been my “learning curve” layout) that I’ve often ended up laying the the track on surfaces that are no longer even.]
I find it strange that 90% of my locos will run smoothly through slightly uneven turnouts, but it takes the remaining 10% to reveal the problems in the layout. Also, when I buy a new loco, I often have to tweak the track as well.
There have been many times, during the past few years, when I’ve thought I was done fixing the track, yet there are still places that need improving. I guess this is also true in real life as crews are often out repairing and improving track as well.
Rob
Re: Always Fixing Track? - Herc Driver - 05-13-2009
I agree and have found the very same thing. I've tried to run my "worst" or most problematic diesels over the layout to purposely find the electrical problem areas. I thought my layout was really set to get ballasted and firmly attached, but just yesterday I found that one engine's front two wheels derailed passing over a particular rail joint. Since I knew the wheels were correctly gauged, I worked with the track to make sure the radius was constant and there was no narrowing of the rails. After a while working on it, that engine doesn't derail anymore. My "test" cars have always been the longer AutoRacks paired with a long engine with a short coupler. If they derail, I keep working on the track until the problem is fixed. It also seems to depend on the car/engine maker as well. I never have a problem running Kato passenger cars, but the Concor's will always find a problem spot and derail. It seems like the shorter cars/engines can easily hide a problem spot whereas the longer engines/cars magnify any little problem.
Re: Always Fixing Track? - RobertInOntario - 05-13-2009
Herc Driver Wrote:I agree and have found the very same thing. I've tried to run my "worst" or most problematic diesels over the layout to purposely find the electrical problem areas. I thought my layout was really set to get ballasted and firmly attached, but just yesterday I found that one engine's front two wheels derailed passing over a particular rail joint. Since I knew the wheels were correctly gauged, I worked with the track to make sure the radius was constant and there was no narrowing of the rails. After a while working on it, that engine doesn't derail anymore. My "test" cars have always been the longer AutoRacks paired with a long engine with a short coupler. If they derail, I keep working on the track until the problem is fixed. It also seems to depend on the car/engine maker as well. I never have a problem running Kato passenger cars, but the Concor's will always find a problem spot and derail. It seems like the shorter cars/engines can easily hide a problem spot whereas the longer engines/cars magnify any little problem.
Thanks ... it looks like we can both relate! I also test the track by running my most quirky locos and coaches.
BTW, I have about 25 locos, and I can get most of these now to run well on the track. As mentioned, my older locos (whose electrical pick-up isn't as good as the new ones) are the most prone to either stall or hesitate at the frogs on the turnouts. Also, the older locos have much thicker flanges, so a few of them will either stall or literally jam at the frogs. It seems that their "pizza-cutter" wheels can't fit through the narrower and finer spacing of the frogs on the modern Peco turnouts.
So part of my problem is that I have layout where I'm trying to run both vintage as well as brand new stock. Overall, the layout is now working well but the large-flanged wheels and more limited pick up of the older locos are a problem. ... I inherited a large collection of older trains from my Dad and also like collecting vintage British locos from the 1960s.
Rob
Re: Always Fixing Track? - Will_Annand - 05-13-2009
Rob.
I thought I had everything laid and working, until I started running trains.
Funny how those little N scale steamers find all the imperfections.
So now, I have two areas where I need to tweak the track. Both on curves.
One has the curve "super elevated", but the elevation is the wrong way.... the outside rail is lower.
On the other, the curve is too tight.
Time to tweak.
Re: Always Fixing Track? - pgandw - 05-13-2009
I guess I've always seen track as part of the layout - never completely finished.
On my past HO layout, I used handlaid track. I started out by laying the initial oval, without any turnouts, to get a feel for hand laying track. Then I had to cut the benchwork from 4x8 to 4x6. Where I removed and relaid track, I had to sand the Homasote smooth before putting new track in. As I relaid sections, I added my 1st 2 turnouts, but didn't add a turnout throw of any kind. To throw the turnouts, I had to stop the train, flip the toggle which controlled the frog polarity, and then move the throwbar by hand. The plan was to come back later and add the memory wire switch machine.
Before completing the track, I decided to try some scenery. I cookie-cuttered the table top for present and planned track and structures. I cut a hole for the turntable - and I learned not to do this until I had the center of the hole marked and located! I raised and lowered parts of the track on risers. Another error was not installing enough (any!) risers for the corner curves - the elevation change of the plywood subroadbed between risers caused negative super-elevation on half my curves! I learned you need to induce some "twist" into the plywood to keep track from getting wierd or negative super-elevation when the curve is also part of a grade. The twist is added by fairly closely spaced risers pulling and pushing the plywood to the desired configuration.
I added some colored plaster on screen wire terrain in the areas where there was no plywood/Homasote. This gave the effect of laying track into the wilderness as I added more track. The effect was especially cool in areas where I had glued ties and ballast on the Homasote, but had not yet spiked any rail. In another place, I excavated the Homasote for a Kadee under-the-ties magnet, and then laid the ties and rail on top of the magnet. Basically, things were always changing.
In planning my new test HO/HOn3 layout, I realized I didn't want to wait too long to be able to test run my locomotives as I built them. So I bought Atlas track and the turnouts for the HO portion, and some ME flex (no turnouts) for the HOn3 portion. I also bought hand laying supplies. My intent is to get things up and running with the commercial track, and then come back and redo and/or add to with handlaid track at a later time. Even on a small layout like this one (4ft x 70.5"), I like to leap from one phase of layout building to another. It will be years, if ever, before the track reaches a "final" configuration.
I learned from my Dad's layouts that the roadbed top needs to be absolutely smooth and flat before laying HO track. Doesn't matter whether it's cork or Homasote, it needs to be sanded smooth and flat before laying track. On my handlaid track, I sand both the roadbed (before laying ties) and the tie tops before laying rail. I use a sanding boat made from 1x2 about 8" long. The ends are rounded, and strips of sandpaper are cut from sheets and attached to the underside and around the ends using push pins on the top of the boat. I believe the sanding saves me from problems with vertical dips and rises in the track.
Another area that demands perfection (for me) is joints between rails or track sections on curves, or where a curve joins a turnout. Kinks at the joints (and anywhere) must be ruthlessly eliminated. I put my eye down at rail level and sight along the rail from both directions, especially at the joints. Any mismatch whatsoever - I correct before I allow the track to be used. I then give the finger nail drag test to all joints as well. Joints must be smooth and correctly aligned. I rework as necessary until I get there - I've done this on my Lionel track as well as in HO. A couple of times I've had to remove old and add new ties because the old ties had too many spike holes in them from reworking. But the method works - derailments don't occur for months at a time.
just my thoughts and experiences
Fred Wright
Re: Always Fixing Track? - Steamtrains - 05-13-2009
One thing I learned from my previous layout was that getting the track as near-perfect as can be is the best investment in time/$$'s you can make. Nothing turns me off like cars and locos wanting to go their own way...So on my current layout I made sure that every piece of track and turnout was laid as well as my meager abilities allow, and soldered joints where kinks are likely to develop (curves, grades...). I use Atlas 100 NS and Peco turnouts laid on cork and glued with silicone adhesive. I can honestly say that over the 4-5 years I've been running I haven't had a SINGLE incident attributable to the track. Now I can run trains and not worry about my track.....
Re: Always Fixing Track? - RobertInOntario - 05-13-2009
pgandw Wrote:I guess I've always seen track as part of the layout - never completely finished.
On my past HO layout, I used handlaid track. I started out by laying the initial oval, without any turnouts, to get a feel for hand laying track. Then I had to cut the benchwork from 4x8 to 4x6. Where I removed and relaid track, I had to sand the Homasote smooth before putting new track in. As I relaid sections, I added my 1st 2 turnouts, but didn't add a turnout throw of any kind. To throw the turnouts, I had to stop the train, flip the toggle which controlled the frog polarity, and then move the throwbar by hand. The plan was to come back later and add the memory wire switch machine.
Fred Wright
Thanks -- I really like what you say about track never being finished, like the layout. Good point and way of looking at things!
Also, I think I've had to add some risers to my layout, especially at the curves. I found I had to raise up the outside edge of my curves a tiny amount, otherwise certain locos (again, not all of them but just 1-2) would derail. I think that's the same thing you were referring to?
Rob
Re: Always Fixing Track? - Herc Driver - 05-13-2009
I super-elevated my outside rails on the curves for two reasons...first, I am hoping my engineers stick to the posted speed limit - and when they don't - the super elevation should help the engines stick to the rails better with applied physics. And secondly, it just looks cool. Those may not be the best reasons...but I don't mind. I used very thin styrene cut to the radius and laid under the outside rail to tilt the entire snap-track or flex track section just a bit. I figured, the styrene is water proof, won't expand when I add glue and ballast, and I can control it's thickness by using the same pieces throughout the layout.
Re: Always Fixing Track? - nachoman - 05-13-2009
not only that, but track requires maintenance over the years. Benchwork expands and contracts with changes in humidity. Turnouts wear out. And sometimes rails become damaged by dropping something on them or leaning on them. All this means over the life of a layout, you will be periodically repairing sections of track. It's normal
Re: Always Fixing Track? - BR60103 - 05-13-2009
Will_Annand Wrote:One has the curve "super elevated", but the elevation is the wrong way.... the outside rail is lower.The English term for this is "cant deficiency".
After a point you have to overcome sentimentality and replace the whole layout.
Re: Always Fixing Track? - RobertInOntario - 05-13-2009
nachoman Wrote:not only that, but track requires maintenance over the years. Benchwork expands and contracts with changes in humidity. Turnouts wear out. And sometimes rails become damaged by dropping something on them or leaning on them. All this means over the life of a layout, you will be periodically repairing sections of track. It's normal
Thanks, I was going to mention that as well, especially about the humidity. We live in a very humid area which can affect a layout as we get into the summer. And it only makes sense that if "real track" needs regular maintenance then MRR track should as well!
I still find it interesting that it often just takes 1-2 locos to reveal a problematic track section, while the others don't seem to be bothered by the short-comings. But, it all makes sense, when you consider the various differences -- i.e. some locos have extra-long wheelbases (which can have trouble on tight curves or poorly-laid track) while other locos are 45+ years-old and therefore have larger flanges and don't pick up current as well as newer ones.
Having said all this, I actually enjoy tweaking track, especially if I'm successful. It's very satisfying and rewarding to fix it and enjoy having your trains run smoothy.
Rob
Re: Always Fixing Track? - nachoman - 05-13-2009
make sure the wheels on your locos are in gauge.
Re: Always Fixing Track? - Selector - 05-14-2009
My roadbed is MDF 6-ply spline roadbed. I never have issues related to seasonal changes, but I feel that is because I stave them off by using a de-humidifier for two of the most humid months....late summer. Even so, I have let the layout room sit uncontrolled during that period for up to two weeks and not noticed a difference.
What tells me I have an unforeseem problem is the introduction of a new engine. Unlike some of you, I always find that a new engine, and not what I had thought was my last best bad track detector, is what has me looking glum. I have steamers of many kinds by many manufacturers. I would say the most finicky up until January was my BLI 4-8-4 Niagara. After I acquired a BLI UP 2-10-2 hybrid in February, I learned what a bad track detector really is. The front tender truck found discrepancies between rail heights measurable only with a tunneling electron microscope. I even had the electrons peering over my shoulder wondering what all the fuss was about. I had to rip up three feet of nicely ballasted track and "do it right". The tender is now happy. But that tender is my new bad track queen.
Or, so I thought. Then, last month, I bought a Genesis SD70MAC with three axle trucks................................................................................ :o
Re: Always Fixing Track? - Steamtrains - 05-14-2009
Funny you should mention a "bad track finder"...I have one of those too....It's an old metal Athearn reefer I inherited from the ol' man...I send it over new track work at all speeds (some might be considered "warp" speed) and over all newly laid track, including turnouts...If that car makes it through without mishaps, I know any and all of my rolling stock will have no problems....
