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+--- Thread: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? (/showthread.php?tid=152)
Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - Green_Elite_Cab - 12-15-2008
I've seen Traction tires used on steam locomotive model to give them that extra pulling power, but i'm curious if such tires are availble for Diesels and electrics.
Specifically, i have a couple electric locomotives that have problems on our club's 4% grade.
ALP44 and AEM7s locomotives are runts, and they have a tough time going up hill. My AEM7 managed to pull 5 cars up hill, Which is fine, but i would like to see if couldn't get a larger train to be pulled up hill on its own. Even one extra car would be amazing. If you are familiar with these locomotives, they are small and compact, and barely have space for a decoder, let alone extra weight.
I also have some super heavy E60 locomotives that I rebuilt from the inside out to be heavy haulers, but even they struggle when a prototype train it put behind it. It is most frustrating for the NJ transit E60, since it seems that on some days, an 8 car train is literally no problem, and it will rocket up that hill with ease. On other days, the E60 stalls out. It seems that this locomotive accumulates lots of grime, and it gives it enough traction to pull up hill, but once the wheels are clean, it can't pull anymore. Even though this locomotive is larger, there is also little space inside the model for added weight.
A single traction tire should do the trick. I especially want something for my E60MA. I might have to double head it with the one i'm building (I've also seen the "Three Rivers" in New Jersey with a NEC P42DC behind an E60MA) to pull a full Silver Crescent or other Amtrak long distance trains, but if i had a traction tire, the E60MA's power seems strong enough to handle it single handedly.
I've seen traction tires on walthers, but i'm not sure if they need special wheelsets or not. Any suggestions?
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - Tom - 12-15-2008
Try Stewart (Bowser). Stewart used to market traction tires in MR magazine, not sure if they still do our not.
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - shaygetz - 12-15-2008
The Stewart tires are specifically for replacement treads on existing models.
Traction tires are primarily for low end under powered models to help pull more cars. While that may seem handy, it makes for poor electrical contact and a tendency to derail . As the loco starts to dig in, the grip can cause the loco to hop. When they get old or sit too long, they can go out of round, making for an annoying wobble as they go down the track. Finally, the ability to slip it's drivers is a built in way to avoid smoking a motor on a loco. I'd recommend doing what the real roads do and just add another unit.
Anybody here old enough to remember when AHM used to knurl a diamond tread into their drivers? By golly I'll bet that sent many a motor down the Magic Blue Smoke trail.
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - Green_Elite_Cab - 12-15-2008
shaygetz Wrote:The Stewart tires are specifically for replacement treads on existing models.
Traction tires are primarily for low end under powered models to help pull more cars.
Apparently they are standard equipment on BLI Steamers... that cost me alot to buy, and as it turns out, my Lionel challenger can't pull a 9 car train of 36' hoppers up that grade. I know that on the straight and level, that thing can out-pull most other locomotives.
Quote:While that may seem handy, it makes for poor electrical contact and a tendency to derail . As the loco starts to dig in, the grip can cause the loco to hop. When they get old or sit too long, they can go out of round, making for an annoying wobble as they go down the track. Finally, the ability to slip it's drivers is a built in way to avoid smoking a motor on a loco. I'd recommend doing what the real roads do and just add another unit.
For the purposes of show season, they'd only be temporary, and specifically, only for some passenger locomotives. I'm positive that i'm not over-extending the power of the motors, i just need that extra bite to make it up the hill in the case of light locomotives. My layout doesn't have nearly the kind of intense grades, nor does it have room to fit trains longer than they are capable of pulling. Besides, I wouldn't add much more than i'd usually pull. For example, my E60 can routinely pull that 8 car train. I'm sure the engine won't burn out just going up the hill
Quote:Anybody here old enough to remember when AHM used to knurl a diamond tread into their drivers? By golly I'll bet that sent many a motor down the Magic Blue Smoke trail.
does adding traction to the wheels really put that much of a strain on it?
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - shaygetz - 12-15-2008
Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:Apparently they are standard equipment on BLI Steamers... that cost me alot to buy, and as it turns out, my Lionel challenger can't pull a 9 car train of 36' hoppers up that grade. I know that on the straight and level, that thing can out-pull most other locomotives.
My Rivarossis have them too and they are hardly low end. There was a day when most models came with them. Then, in the mid 70s, there was a big push in the modeling community, lead by MR magazine, to stop putting them on locos. Some companies responded by simply giving the buyer an optional driver that you could replace the tire with. Eventually, most companies stopped adding them. The tires that come on Rivarossi and BLI locos are able to slip when overloaded, most of the clear tires do. I use Stewarts to replace the rubber ones that come on AHM, Jeouff and Fleischmann diesels for that reason. If I can, I cannibalize other units for their drivers to replace the traction tired ones.
Because I'm not familiar with the performance of that particular model, I'd go with your confidence in it, checking the motor after a couple laps just to make sure it isn't too warm.
Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:does adding traction to the wheels really put that much of a strain on it?
Not necessarily, the clear tires on Rivarossi steam and BLI grip well but slip enough. Life-Like and Bachmann on the other hand, will bounce like a bad check, hopping right off the track most every time. Others will simply grip 'til the motor smokes itself. If a locomotive cannot slip under load, there is no way of really knowing if your pushing your motor to its limits. That's usually where motor burnout comes from.
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - Tom - 12-15-2008
I bought an old Bachmann 4-8-4 (the early ones) on E-bay a while back after inquiring as to whether Doc Wayne might sell his (Deano had already spoken for it). I figured I'd try my hand at remotoring it and detailing it similar to Doc Waynes. I figured, "what the heck", and put it on the layout to see it run (I was mostly just curious to see how well the smoke unit that was advertised on the box worked). Not only did the smoke unit work a lot better than I thought it would, it ran really well. I was surprised. So, I started adding more and more cars to it. Mind you, my layout has a 3% grade on the rear of it, that cheap, old school Bachmann actually pulled 15 cars up that grade, and I prefer to weigh my cars a little heavier than NMRA standards. I then thought "No way", and took it apart to see what kind of motor the previous owner had remotored it with. No dice, original pancake motor from Bachmann. Flipped it over, and nope. No traction tires either. Go figure!
Sometimes, you just get lucky and wind up with a "super" power locomotive. I once had an Athearn SW-1500 (when they came out, I was all excited someone did a WP engine in Perlman green paint!), so I had to have it. Ran REALLY rough. So, I tuned it by completely disassembling the motor, cleaned ALL parts of it and the drive train in alcohol, went over the gears with a fine file where needed, added lead weights in the inside roof of the body, and re-assembled. Thing pulls like a Kato, but runs EVEN SMOOTHER than any Atlas or Kato unit I own. Simply amazing. Everyone who sees it work a cut of cars in the yard wants to know what I remotored it with. When I tell them it is the original small Athearn motor in it, they all call "Bull!!"
Then again, I have had some high end locos (like Proto) that ran like old tired dogs).
Like I said, sometimes you are the windshield, sometimes you are the bug when purchasing locomotives.
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - MasonJar - 12-16-2008
You might be further ahead to properly weight the loco, than changing out wheels to get one(s) with traction tires. Balancing (added) weight is especially important in steamers, but extra weight can improve the pull of diesels as Tom attests, above.
Andrew
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - jmarksbery - 12-16-2008
I have seen some folks use heat shrink tubing cut to size and then shrink
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - Catt - 12-16-2008
might try this stuff http://www.amazon.com/BULLFROG-SNOT-Universal-Plastic-Traction/dp/B001NG2ECC/
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - Green_Elite_Cab - 12-16-2008
MasonJar Wrote:You might be further ahead to properly weight the loco, than changing out wheels to get one(s) with traction tires. Balancing (added) weight is especially important in steamers, but extra weight can improve the pull of diesels as Tom attests, above.
Andrew
Again, the reason i'm looking at traction tires is because there is no more provisions to add more weight. I'd like to see anyone make an Atlas AEM7 heavier. The only open areas are the cabs of the locomotive. IF it were DC, i could have filled in the decoder slots, but only run DCC these days, so i'm out of luck.
The E60 could be made heavier, but it will be hard, since the only open space is prett much along the sides of the drive train, and i'm not sure where or how i can add more weight the the models.
I really don't think extra weight is going to help my Challenger either. that thing already weighs a ton. I'm not sure how i can add more weight to make it pull better. In fact, i might wager that adding weight to some of these locomotives will make it worse.
Catt Wrote:might try this stuff http://www.amazon.com/BULLFROG-SNOT-Universal-Plastic-Traction/dp/B001NG2ECC/
A creative alternative, and probably the best i've seen! In the case of the AEM7/ALP44s, it would be difficult to find the right tires for thier unique wheels.
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - Tom - 12-17-2008
After thinking about it today, I think if you added traction tires to an Atlas model, with as powerful a motor as they have, you would likely spin them off the wheel while climbing a grade. IIRC, Rivarossi engines that had the traction tires had a groove in the wheel to accept a traction tire.
In the real world, out here in California at least, an Amtrak F59PHi is only good for six or seven cars before they add an extra unit. And our trackage is all FLAT on the San Joaquin runs, but it is 79mph most of the way, so, is it possible that a prototype AEM7 can only pull as many coaches as your model up that grade? I really don't know as I only ever worked with F40PH's, P40 and P42DC's, B40-8Wi, and F59PHi's. You might just have to cut your losses and add a second unit I'm afraid. :?
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - MasonJar - 12-17-2008
Quote:Again, the reason i'm looking at traction tires is because there is no more provisions to add more weight. I'd like to see anyone make an Atlas AEM7 heavier. The only open areas are the cabs of the locomotive. IF it were DC, i could have filled in the decoder slots, but only run DCC these days, so i'm out of luck.
The E60 could be made heavier, but it will be hard, since the only open space is prett much along the sides of the drive train, and i'm not sure where or how i can add more weight the the models.
I really don't think extra weight is going to help my Challenger either. that thing already weighs a ton. I'm not sure how i can add more weight to make it pull better. In fact, i might wager that adding weight to some of these locomotives will make it worse.
Sorry, I missed that part of your first post... :oops:
However, there are additional ways to add weight to existing parts - filling fuel tanks, replacing plastic gears with metal, or other metal parts with heavier metal parts. NWSL has replacement drives, wheelsets, and the like that may be heavier than those supplied in the original.
As for your Challenger, remember what DoctorWayne said in one of his old threads about balancedd weight in a steamer. Probably as important to balance it as to simply add the weight. In fact, IIRC, sticking weight in without accounting for balance can make performance worse, even if overall weight goes up.
Hope that helps.
Andrew
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - Green_Elite_Cab - 12-17-2008
Tom Wrote:After thinking about it today, I think if you added traction tires to an Atlas model, with as powerful a motor as they have, you would likely spin them off the wheel while climbing a grade. IIRC, Rivarossi engines that had the traction tires had a groove in the wheel to accept a traction tire.
In the real world, out here in California at least, an Amtrak F59PHi is only good for six or seven cars before they add an extra unit. And our trackage is all FLAT on the San Joaquin runs, but it is 79mph most of the way, so, is it possible that a prototype AEM7 can only pull as many coaches as your model up that grade? I really don't know as I only ever worked with F40PH's, P40 and P42DC's, B40-8Wi, and F59PHi's. You might just have to cut your losses and add a second unit I'm afraid. :?
That might be a problem, but i'd like to test it out before i do anything. that bullfrog snot looks interesting, and its not a solid "tire", and i can remove it if it doesn't work. I was looking for grooved wheelsets, but i haven't had much luck. I'm almost thinking of steeling some off my ancient bachmann E60CP, which had traction tires (and no longer works), but i'm not sure the gearing is the same. I'll have to check it out.
As far as AEM7s go, I have a video of them going under the hudson river to get to New york, and i'm told that is a pretty ugly grade, so they must be able to be pulling these long-distance trains up that. That said, even on flat and level track, these locomotives have trouble pulling the prototype length trains. 6-7 cars really pushed the limits of an AEM7 on level track. This is fine considering that most of the amtrak trains i see are 4 coaches and a pair of food service cars. However, my ALP44 (basically the same as an AEM7) can routinely be seen pulling 8 car trains of Comets, and my ALP44 just can't handle that. Whats more, the AEM7-AC rebuilds can pull epicly long trains all on their own.
Adding a second AEM7 to a long distance trains (like those that would be pulled by HHP8s and E60MAs) might be alright, but a lot of the time these days, they are on their own with large trains
The E60s are technically capable of about 14 cars or so in real life. I think mine might actually be able to do that, but i don't have enough space to test it on my layout.
MasonJar Wrote:Sorry, I missed that part of your first post... :oops:
However, there are additional ways to add weight to existing parts - filling fuel tanks, replacing plastic gears with metal, or other metal parts with heavier metal parts. NWSL has replacement drives, wheelsets, and the like that may be heavier than those supplied in the original.
As for your Challenger, remember what DoctorWayne said in one of his old threads about balancedd weight in a steamer. Probably as important to balance it as to simply add the weight. In fact, IIRC, sticking weight in without accounting for balance can make performance worse, even if overall weight goes up.
Hope that helps.
Andrew
That AEM7 is compact. I just took my ALP-44 apart today to figure out why it was shorting (and that was a bizarre problem in itself). Even the underbody was full of weight. The only parts of the model that are open are the cabs, and a small region under the roof. I'm not sure what kind of gears i'd need to make it metal, and most of it is unique, so I'm really out of luck, it seems.
Yeah, i don't know how to ballance the weight of the Challenger. You're probably right though, all the wheels are attached to one of two pivot points. The pilot and front set of drivers are mounted on one assembly above the forward most driver, and the trailing tuck and rear set of drivers are essentially a mirror image. It doesn't look like the weight is applied over most of the drivers. Some have suggested placing weight into the sand domes, so i'll have to see if there is more space inside the steamer (i've only dis-assembled it once).
I've seen kits for making molds and casting parts with metal, but i don't know what parts i could get away doing that with. I already have a plastics molding/casting set, and its frustrating, lol.
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - Tom - 12-17-2008
Ok, here's a REALLY crazy suggestion. Is it remotely possible to lower the gear ratio with gears from NWSL in that engine? I don't know anything about the AEM7's, but could that be an option? I mean, lower the gear, increase the torque.
Re: Traction Tires for Diesels and Electrics? - nkp_174 - 12-17-2008
My Bachmann Plus 4-8-4 could pull around 2 cars up a slight grade. I then clipped the springs on the trailing a lead trucks...and it suddenly gained the ability to pull 13 passenger cars up a slight grade. Our models are just like the real thing...factor of adhesion. Weight on drivers is important...a poorly balanced locomotive isn't putting all of its weight on the drivers in an even manner. Diesels have all their weight on their drivers. Another component of the FoA is the adhesion between the wheels and rail. Steel rail and steel wheels are the best for adhesion...and worst for conductivity. A traction tire dramatically improves the adhesion...but increases maintenance. I don't buy the electrical conductivity argument unless it is a really small locomotive or few axles pick up power.
I think of traction tires as being something used on expensive steam locomotives. Diesels have the advantage of being easier to load up with weight...so only a cheap manufacturer would use them. Doesn't P2K offer locomotives with traction tires? I tend to recall that they didn't pull so well in their first couple issues, so they added traction tires. MTH's K-4 came with both. The Athearn Gensis steam needed either traction tires or more weight.
Traction tires seem to elicit strong responses for and against. I don't care. Either way...just make help it pull. There are many pictures of a little Rio Grande 2-8-0 pulling 30 freight cars on level track...yet such a locomotive could only pull around 4 up a 4% grade.
If your diesel/electric can handle more weight, try that first. You'd need to use a lathe to add traction tires to a model that isn't designed for them...as the traction tire needs to have a groove to keep it from falling off (and having one axle sit a scale 2" higher than the others).
The real downside to traction tires is that they prevent your locomotive from slipping when is should. You need to be careful that it doesn't stall if you add a traction tire...or else your motor is toast.