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Lighting for Layout? - Gary S - 12-09-2009
Question: What kind/amount/watts per sq ft of light do you have in your layout room? And are you satisfied with it?
As I make my plans for my new layout building, I got to wondering how much light I need. For my taste, the more the better. However, this has to be adjusted to reality for economic issues - light fixtures and lamps aren't cheap, and it takes electricity ($$) to make the darned things light up!
My room will be about 20 x 40 and right now I am planning on using sixteen 2x4 recessed florescent fixtures, with four T8 32 watt lamps in each fixture. That is a total of 2048 watts, or 2.56 watts per square foot. Ceiling will be painted white. Since these fixtures will be recessed, I have to make allowances in the ceiling joists before the sheetrock is done. So I am just wondering if I will have enough light based on my proposed plans.
Re: Lighting for Layout? - jim currie - 12-09-2009
for my personal preferance i like indirect lighting with rail lighting to highlight what ever needs it.
jim
Re: Lighting for Layout? - doctorwayne - 12-09-2009
Gary S Wrote:My room will be about 20 x 40 and right now I am planning on using sixteen 2x4 recessed florescent fixtures, with four T8 32 watt lamps in each fixture. That is a total of 2048 watts, or 2.56 watts per square foot. Ceiling will be painted white. Since these fixtures will be recessed, I have to make allowances in the ceiling joists before the sheetrock is done. So I am just wondering if I will have enough light based on my proposed plans.
Gary, unless you've got different terminology in Texas, isn't a 2x4 fixture a pair of four foot tubes?
My layout room is about 560sq.ft., although it's a very odd shape. Layout lighting is above a suspended ceiling and consists of sixteen fixtures with two 4' (40watts each) tubes in each. That's about 2.3 watts per square foot, but if I were re-doing it, I'd modify the spacing of the fixtures somewhat to include another two fixtures.
There is a partial second level planned for the layout, and I'll be adding an additional ten four foot double fixtures, all of them affixed to the underside of the upper level of the layout.
For your situation, though, I think that placing the lighting over the layout will give you more bang for your lighting buck. Of course, this will depend on the style of layout - mine generally follows the walls of the room, although there's a peninsula sticking out in one area. An around-the-room type of layout will not likely be too deep (almost all of your layout should be within arm's reach), so twin-tube fixtures, spaced appropriately and following the layout in a more-or-less linear fashion will put the light where you need it. If possible, position the lights slightly closer to the viewing side, rather than directly over the centrepoint of the layout. Don't place them above the aisles, as you'll end up with head shadows on the layout.
Because of the need to keep the lights over the layout, you might want to re-think placing them between the joists, and instead place them beneath the finished ceiling. If you want recessed lighting, avoid a finished (drywalled) ceiling altogether and install a suspended ceiling. You can cut and/or re-position the ceiling framework as necessary to install lights where you need them, them trim the ceiling tiles to fit. Even if you want to install the lights between the joists, a four tube fixture is going to be too wide for most joist spacings.
The other change that I'd suggest is to use 40 watt tubes instead of the 32s - despite what they try to tell you, 32 watts does not (can not) produce 40 watts worth of light.
There are many types of fluorescent tubes available, but, until recently, cool whites were the ones that gave you the most lumens (amount of light) per watt. While the light quality is not at all natural in appearance, most cameras (except perhaps those with internal floppies
) have a setting to compensate for the light source and your pictures will appear to be quite naturally lit. Your eyes will also compensate for the light quality, and stuff will look quite "normal" after only a few minutes in the room. Recently, though, I purchased a couple of tubes for my shop lights and, because of all the unfamiliar new names for some, I began comparing light output, as listed on the package. I ended up buying a pair of 3' (30watts each) "Soft White" tubes, with a combined light output of 4800 lumens, which was substantially more than the same-sized cool whites. The light has a "warmer" appearance, almost incandescent. I like them enough that I considered replacing all of the cool whites in the layout room, but then I discovered that the light even fools my camera, yielding unnatural-looking hues.Colour-balanced, sometimes called temperature-balanced, tubes provided very natural looking light that photographs just as if it were sunlight. The two drawbacks to this type are higher cost and severely reduced lumen output.
Whatever you decide, I agree with your statement: you can't have too much light.
Wayne
Re: Lighting for Layout? - Russ Bellinis - 12-09-2009
Gary, I would look into installing solar tubes when you build the layout building. They use sunlight to light the room beneath them, and after dark, the reflective sides of the tube amplify a relatively small light bulb. They don't transmit heat, so you don't need to worry about them getting too hot in summer, but they will give you the maximum of free light for the cost of including them in your construction.
Re: Lighting for Layout? - Gary S - 12-09-2009
Wayne: thank you for the detailed commentary. Gives me alot to think about, and more things to discuss with The Gauge et al!
doctorwayne Wrote:Gary, unless you've got different terminology in Texas, isn't a 2x4 fixture a pair of four foot tubes?
We've always used the dimensions of the fixtures... 2x4 is a two foot by four foot fixture. A 1x4 would be a 1 foot by four footer. A 2x2 is a square two foot by two foot. Now, the two foot by four foot fixtures can be had in a 2, 3, or 4 lamp variety. So, the fixture I mentioned would be called a 2x4 4-lamp fixture. That's the Texas way!
doctorwayne Wrote:That's about 2.3 watts per square foot, but if I were re-doing it, I'd modify the spacing of the fixtures somewhat to include another two fixtures.
So you would be pushing 3 watts per square foot? I was thinking the 3 watts would be good, but am relying only on anecdotal evidence.
doctorwayne Wrote:For your situation, though, I think that placing the lighting over the layout will give you more bang for your lighting buck. If possible, position the lights slightly closer to the viewing side, rather than directly over the centrepoint of the layout. Don't place them above the aisles, as you'll end up with head shadows on the layout.
I didn't think about shadows from my head. I need to consider that. I will do a little diagram of my area and thoughts so we will have a better idea of what we are dealing with... I'll post that shortly.
doctorwayne Wrote:Because of the need to keep the lights over the layout, you might want to re-think placing them between the joists, and instead place them beneath the finished ceiling. If you want recessed lighting, avoid a finished (drywalled) ceiling altogether and install a suspended ceiling.
I had definitely considered a suspended ceiling and actually prefer that over sheetrock. It would make everything so much easier. No fighting a 70 pound sheet up to the joists with one hand while running the screwgun with the other.
hock: No taping and floating! No painting! And easy installation of lighting and such. Plus easy access if I ever needed to do any wiring or anything else above the ceiling. However, I have some major concerns in using the suspended ceiling to seperate the "living" space from the attic space. I'm not sure how attics are done up north, but down here we have to maintain a flow of outside air through the attic. This is typically done by using vented soffits at the eaves and either a ridgeline vent or a metal ventilator near the highpoint of the roof. So far so good. But with the humidity that we typically have all year long, I am afraid that the tiles would have issues. They would absorb the moisture and start sagging, and turn brown. I did some checking on a lay-in ceiling manufacturer's website and they didn't recommend their product for an installation between living space and a ventilated attic. They said the tiles should only be used in environmentally controlled areas such as that between a first floor and a second floor, or between a basement and a first floor.
Secondly, I need the ceiling joists for the integrity of the structure. I could hang the suspended ceiling below the joists, but I want the ceiling to be at least 8 feet tall. And I don't want to go with longer wall studs, because then the building would be taller than my house. And, considering the first point above, I may still need the sheetrock above the tile to separate the tile from the outside air.
Also, I need to insulate between the attic and the living space. Not sure if it would be okay to lay the insulation on the tiles.... probably would be okay, but still have the issues above.
Down here, the suspended ceiling system is used almost exclusively in concrete or metal structured commercial buildings. I have never seen it used as a seperation between a ventilated attic and living space. And that makes me sad because I really really prefer the suspended ceiling.
doctorwayne Wrote:Even if you want to install the lights between the joists, a four tube fixture is going to be too wide for most joist spacings.
I would have to take the fixture size/placement into account when I install the joists. I would have to build the recesses into the framework.
doctorwayne Wrote:The other change that I'd suggest is to use 40 watt tubes instead of the 32s - despite what they try to tell you, 32 watts does not (can not) produce 40 watts worth of light.
I had a mild surprise about 6 months ago. I am an electrician by trade, but haven't been in construction for over ten years. Well, we needed some new fixtures for a lab, so I called the supply house and ordered some 2x4 2-lamp T12 lay-in fixtures. The salesman said that they don't even make those fixtures anymore. Everything has gone to the smaller diameter T8s. And I'll have to check, but I think the T8s have a max of 32 watts. And that is with the electronic type ballasts instead of the old electromagnetic ballasts. Again, some research is in order... on both the wattage and the colors available as per your discussion.
Do you have T8s or the older T12s? The "8" stands for "eigths" of an inch, so a T12 is 1.5 inches in diameter, a T8 is only 1" in diameter.
doctorwayne Wrote:Whatever you decide, I agree with your statement: you can't have too much light.
Light is good!
Re: Lighting for Layout? - Gary S - 12-09-2009
Here is a rough drawing of the room. The shelves will be 2 feet wide, except wider as shown at the 180 degree turn at the middle wall. The aisles will be around 5 to 6 feet wide. Layout height will be approximately 54 inches.
This is what I was thinking for the recessed fixtures. Sixteen 4-lamp fixtures. DocWayne, I am considering not doing the recessed fixtures, and going with 4 rows of surface mount 2 lamp fixtures, 1 row above each of the four long shelves in the long dimension of the room. I like the idea of the "cleaness" of the recessed fixtures, but proper lighting of the layout is most important.
On the shadow-from-my-head issue, I drew a diagram and the arrangement shown below would certainly cause a shadow if I am standing in front of the layout... I am 6 foot 4 inches tall.
Re: Lighting for Layout? - Gary S - 12-09-2009
Alternate plan with 1x4 2-lamp fixtures
Re: Lighting for Layout? - doctorwayne - 12-09-2009
I think that you'll get more useful lighting with the second plan, Gary, but I'd suggest a few revisions.
First, place some fixtures perpendicular to the lay-out shown: I'd put two across each of the dead-end aisles, positioning them so that they're entirely over the layout and not over the aisle whatsoever. Put another one across the end of the peninsula, and another four across the entry end of the room, all above the layout and not over the aisle at all. The remaining lights (and you probably won't require all of them) could be spaced out a little more and also repositioned over the layout. I'm guessing that five along the wall beside the door, four above each side of the peninsula, and, at most, six along the long wall. That would require a total of 28 four foot/two tube fixtures, a saving of four from your diagram. I'd also bet that you'll get better (more useable) light with the fewer fixtures if they're properly placed.
Don't worry about aisle lighting: unless you plan on using a black backdrop and painting your layout facia black, too, there'll be plenty of reflected light in the room. I have storage space under almost all of the layout, and no trouble finding stuff due to poor lighting.
Another thing to consider while you're doing the wiring is receptacles. I surface-mounted mine on the walls beneath the layout (they're controlled by a switch alongside the light switches, so that when I leave the room, everything gets shut off), with the intention of moving them to the outer face of the layout support benchwork once I finish the sliding doors meant to hide all of that stored junk. The electrical inspector had no problem with this plan, as I intend to use BX (armoured cable) for the extension from the present boxes to the new ones. This will place them at the front of the layout, but below the facia, so there'll be no chance of an operator accidentally trying to plug a 12V DC throttle into a 120V receptacle.
The picture below shows the 2"X4" support framework upon which the boxes will be surface mounted, although not necessarily at that particular location. They'll be recessed from the layout facia, but still visible and easily accessible.
![[Image: CopyofLayoutroomphotos008.jpg]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Layout%20room%20tour/CopyofLayoutroomphotos008.jpg)
Wayne
Re: Lighting for Layout? - Gary S - 12-10-2009
Thanks Wayne, I agree on your suggestions. Tomorrow, I'll draw it out to scale so I can see how to best arrange everything to fit. My rough drawing is slightly off scale-wise. Also, it's time to research 1x4 2-lamp fixtures.
On your idea for the switches that control the receptacles, I did the same thing for the layout in the garage. The switch turns off the DCC controller/booster and my DC power supply for the uncoupling magnets. I'll do the same in the new building. Plus I will put the fixtures on a couple of different circuits, with seperate switches.
Thanks for that photo. Can't get enough of your layout! And thanks for your ideas. I'll post a new drawing tomorrow.
Re: Lighting for Layout? - doctorwayne - 12-10-2009
Gary S Wrote:.... I will put the fixtures on a couple of different circuits, with seperate switches.
Yeah, in Ontario, the code specifies a maximum of any combination of fixtures or receptacles totalling 12 on a standard 15 amp (#14 wire) circuit. In many American jurisdictions, standard household circuits are 20 amp, with, of course, #12 wiring.
Wayne
Re: Lighting for Layout? - Gary S - 12-11-2009
Yep, I'll be using #12 and 20 amp circuits on everything.
Here is another variation on the lighting taking into account some of Wayne's suggestions. On the left end, I tried placing a light fixture running "up and down" but couldn't fit it in to my satisfaction.
I could still add one more fixture running "up and down" at the end of the "peninsula".
No doubt this is a TON of light fixtures and a bunch of $$$! Is it too much light? There are thirty-one 1foot x 4 foot 2 lamp fixtures. I could spread them out more to use less fixtures, but if I am going on "can't have too much light" then maybe this is what I should do?
As for ceiling joists, the center wall is a load bearing wall. I'll use 10-foot 2x8s across from the outside walls to the center wall, through the openings between the fixtures. Then I'll box in the fixture recesses with 2x6s and finish out with 2x4s between the fixtures to give something to screw the sheetrock to.
Re: Lighting for Layout? - Gary S - 12-11-2009
Russ Bellinis Wrote:Gary, I would look into installing solar tubes when you build the layout building. They use sunlight to light the room beneath them, and after dark, the reflective sides of the tube amplify a relatively small light bulb. They don't transmit heat, so you don't need to worry about them getting too hot in summer, but they will give you the maximum of free light for the cost of including them in your construction.
Russ:
Sorry that I overlooked your post. This is very interesting. I'm doing some research right now. Any idea on cost? And have you seen these in action?
The other concern is what to do at night. I see that there are light kits that can be installed in them. But what quantities would I need? I think I will contact the company and see what they think about using them for my application.
Re: Lighting for Layout? - doctorwayne - 12-11-2009
I think that you've still got more fixtures than you need, and also that you're adding to the cost by installing them between the joists.
Here's a rough sketch, using 25 fixtures. While the distance between fixtures varies slightly, the maximum is 2 1/2' - in my layout room, most are 4' apart. Note that the entire fixture, in all cases, is entirely above the layout, and very near to the aisle. If you're drywalling the room, I'd suggest coving the corners: then, with a reasonably light colour for the "sky", all corners will be well-lit. Note too that the fixtures on the end walls are offset to maintain, more-or-less, the spacing and therefore, the light distribution.
![[Image: Layoutlighting003.jpg]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Layout%20room%20tour/Layoutlighting003.jpg)
You could use straight utility-grade lights, with just the metal fixture box and the exposed tubes, or opt for the slightly more expensive type with a wrap-around acrylic light diffuser.
By mounting the lights on the ceiling rather than in it, you'll get a much wider distribution of light, including reflected light from the backdrop. Rather than directing it straight down from an enclosed fixture, the light will flood the layout below, eliminating "hot spots" beneath individual fixtures and the resultant dark areas between fixtures. This allows you to use fewer fixtures and also simplifies ceiling framing.
Wiring could be above the ceiling, or on the ceiling using conduit or race-way type protection.
I neglected to mention it, but my preference for a structure such as you're constructing is for a solid door (no window) and no windows in the building, either. Sunlight, while nice for photos, is difficult to control, not always present when you need it, will add to the cooling requirements of your building, and will fade your scenery even faster than will the fluorescents. Windows are also an easy way in for intruders - not good in a building separate from the house.
Wayne
Re: Lighting for Layout? - Gary S - 12-12-2009
You make some very good points, Wayne.
Considering recessed lights:
Pros - "clean" look
Cons - more costly at $50 each!
- lots of extra time and work for the ceiling joist construction
- less light directed on backdrop results in less light on layout
Surface mounted fixtures would be the opposite of above. So now I am in agreement that surface mount is the best option and I like your arrangement of the fixtures... will probably go with the "wraparound lens" type fixture.
I would like to cove the corners, but my issue with that is that my existing layout/shelves which will be incorporated into the new layout have square corners. And the GERN facility sits in one of the square corners. I'm not sure I want to dismantle/modify it!
I agree that no windows is the way to go. The layout will be at 54", so that makes a problem for windows anyway. Not a lot of room between layout and ceiling for windows, except maybe a 15" x 24" glider type window. And that interferes in the backdrop.
My only concern with no windows is the future value that the building will add to the property. Not that I will be looking to sell the place, but when my daughter inherits the property, she'll probably want to sell it. Now, I am probably being a bit too proactive worrying about that. On that note, I have even considered framing the walls with openings for a garage door, and then filling it in with studs, just in case the next owner wants to have a shop or whatever with a garage door. Is that being a bit crazy?
As I sit here typing this, it just started raining again. I'm glad the foundation was completed when it was, because it seems like it has been raining ever since. The yard is a pond! Don't know when I'll be able to start framing. I have been accumulating lumber though, and storing it in my garage. About every other day, I stop at the HD and get a load of 2x4s or 2x6s so I'll have the material I need once I start.
Wayne, thanks for helping me with all this. I do appreciate it! I'm sure I will be asking more questions. And, if you can think of anything as I am building all this, please feel free to give me your opinions, as I value them highly.
Thanks!
Gary
Re: Lighting for Layout? - doctorwayne - 12-12-2009
Gary S Wrote:I would like to cove the corners, but my issue with that is that my existing layout/shelves which will be incorporated into the new layout have square corners. And the GERN facility sits in one of the square corners. I'm not sure I want to dismantle/modify it!
Gary, my layout has square corners, too, as does the room, at least below layout level.
To very easily construct coved corners for your backdrop requires only a slight amount of pre-planning when you finish the walls. When I finished the interior walls of my basement layout, I installed all of the drywall vertically (so that the joints between sheets were vertical - I have never seen the butt joints on horizontally-installed drywall finished in a manner that can withstand close scrutiny, including that of the camera's lense). For the majority of the room, I used 1/2" drywall, but at all of the corners, both inside and outside, I used 3/8". If you choose to use 5/8" drywall for the walls, then use 1/2" at the corners.
The corners should be boarded first - if you're using 16"o/c stud spacing, cover at least one space on both sides of the corner with the thinner drywall - if the stud spacing at the corner is less than 16", extend the thinner drywall to the next stud. The spacing on one side of the corner doesn't have to be the same as that on the other, either, so you shouldn't need to install any "extra" studs to accommodate this method.
Finish boarding the room with the thicker sheets, then tape and finish all joints between the thick boards. Do not tape or finish the joints between the dissimilar boards.
Next, build or install your benchwork, or, if you're absolutely sure of its finished height, you can cove the corners while they're completely accessible - either way, the method is the same. (The joints beneath the "cove" will also be beneath the layout - on mine, I left them unfinished, so if the layout is ever removed, it'll be easier to remove the coved corner, including the thinner drywall, so that it can be refinished in the "normal" manner to match the rest of the room).
Next, use a tape measure, on-edge, with the blade curved to roughly match the curve which you want for the cove, to measure from the edge of the thicker sheet on one side of the corner to that on the other side. Using a sheet of 1/8" Masonite (the regular kind is best and cheaper, but the tempered kind will work, too), cut (working from the back [rough] side) it to the required height (layout top surface to ceiling), then cut the measured length.
After lightly sanding the cut edges to remove any fuzz, lay the back face of one edge against the thinner drywall, butting its edge against that of the adjacent thicker sheet. Hold this edge firmly in place, then push slowly against the centre of the sheet and towards the corner, forcing it into a curve, until the opposite edge snaps into position. The curved sheet will now hold itself in place. If your curve is too tight for your tastes, remove the sheet, trim a suitable amount from one edge and re-install it. Ideally, the curve will not start at the edges of the sheet, as you'll need a flat area in which to install the drywall screws once the curve is finalised. This is why it's important to leave sufficient width when installing the area of thinner drywall.
Once you're satisfied with the curve, pre-drill holes (about 4" apart) along both sides of the installed Masonite, then countersink all holes to accommodate the screwheads. Make sure that all screwheads are set below the surface, then mud and tape as you would normally - use a light touch when sanding on the Masonite, so that it doesn't get too fuzzy.
![[Image: detailsofcovedcorners003.jpg]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Layout%20room%20tour/detailsofcovedcorners003.jpg)
![[Image: detailsofcovedcorners004.jpg]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Layout%20room%20tour/detailsofcovedcorners004.jpg)
Here's a view of a finished corner:
![[Image: Layoutroomphotos019.jpg]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Layout%20room%20tour/Layoutroomphotos019.jpg)
And another view showing where the benchwork for the second level can be inserted into the corners, between the upper and lower coves:
![[Image: Layoutroomphotos006.jpg]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Layout%20room%20tour/Layoutroomphotos006.jpg)
You can also do outside corners, as at the open end of your peninsula, using this method. I've found it best to increase the width of the thinner drywall area, then fasten the Masonite at both edges and also at the next studs towards the curve, then let the Masonite bulge out before curving it around the corner. This is a "trial-and-error" procedure - cut long and trim in small increments until it fits.
There are two outside corners visible in the photo below, one each at left and right:
![[Image: Layoutroomphotos007.jpg]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Layout%20room%20tour/Layoutroomphotos007.jpg)
Here's an aerial look at the one on the left: you can see at the rear of the icehouse how the coving first curves like a regular inside corner, then transitions through an "ess" bend into the curve around the corner.
![[Image: BarneySecordfliestheGrandValley--7.jpg]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Layout%20room%20tour/BarneySecordfliestheGrandValley--7.jpg)
The opposite side, around the corner, is similar, as seen at right, below:
![[Image: Layoutroomphotos001.jpg]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Layout%20room%20tour/Layoutroomphotos001.jpg)
Here, with both sides visible, you can see how tight the Masonite can be curved - the layout facia at the corner is about an 8" radius:
![[Image: Layoutroomphotos030.jpg]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Layout%20room%20tour/Layoutroomphotos030.jpg)
Here's another outside corner, also open for later installation of second-level benchwork. Also hidden behind the "sky" is the house's main drain:
![[Image: Layoutroomphotos026.jpg]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Layout%20room%20tour/Layoutroomphotos026.jpg)
And as seen from "around the bend":
![[Image: Layoutroomphotos021.jpg]](http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/doctorwayne/Layout%20room%20tour/Layoutroomphotos021.jpg)
Once all of the corners have been finished, you can paint the "sky", adding other details as required.
Gary S Wrote:My only concern with no windows is the future value that the building will add to the property. Not that I will be looking to sell the place, but when my daughter inherits the property, she'll probably want to sell it. Now, I am probably being a bit too proactive worrying about that. On that note, I have even considered framing the walls with openings for a garage door, and then filling it in with studs, just in case the next owner wants to have a shop or whatever with a garage door. Is that being a bit crazy?
I wouldn't worry too much about future windows: if the next owner wants them, they wouldn't be difficult to install. It's unlikely that you could predict where they'd want them or the size they'd want, either.
Framing to accommodate an overhead door makes some sense, but again, I'd leave it up to the next owner - who knows, maybe he'll be a model railroader?
Gary S Wrote:As I sit here typing this, it just started raining again. I'm glad the foundation was completed when it was, because it seems like it has been raining ever since. The yard is a pond! Don't know when I'll be able to start framing. I have been accumulating lumber though, and storing it in my garage. About every other day, I stop at the HD and get a load of 2x4s or 2x6s so I'll have the material I need once I start.
I hope that your Home Depot lumber is more stable than what they sell here - if it's not nailed in place within a couple of days, you'll have a pile of hockey sticks.
Our lumber is so green, even the kiln-dried stuff, that you have to wear safety glasses when nailing it, or you're liable to get squirted in the eye. 
Wayne