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+--- Thread: GG-1 Generator Car Powered (/showthread.php?tid=2235)
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GG-1 Generator Car Powered - Herc Driver - 01-20-2010
Hi Guys,
Got a question...
A friend of mine mentioned that he heard of the New England RR using a generator car to power the PRR/PC GG-1 since they did not have the overhead catenary system. Has anyone ever heard of this and might know where an article or picture of this might be found? So far my search attempts haven't been successful...but it sounds like a great modeling idea.
Thanks!
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - Triplex - 01-20-2010
Locations of preserved GG-1s:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/survive.html">http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/survive.html</a><!-- m -->
Which one would that be?
I've never heard of a GG-1 being operated in preservation.
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - Puddlejumper - 01-20-2010
As far as I know, and I hope I am wrong, no GG1 will ever operate again unless the internal equipment is replaced to eliminate the hazardous PCBs that are inside some electrical components. Some federal EPA law or something like that. I can't see why a group couldn't combine, say, a GG1 and the components from a retired E44 or E60CP, but it is prolly expensive and difficult. Plus the cracked frame problem the GG1s were known for.
For a more direct answer, no, there is no such group or set up with an operating GG1 currently, but we can all hope one day there will be.
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - Herc Driver - 01-20-2010
I'm sorry - I should have written my post more specifically - sorry for the confusion. I'm looking back in history here when the GG-1's were still running in regular service.
The information I was told related a story that the New England RR required an additional generator/power supply car to run with the GG-1 when it was running many years ago over their interchanges. I'm not too familiar with the New England RR, and have no idea if the Pennsy or Penn Central or even the newly formed Amtrak or Conrail ever operated a GG-1 in the New England area. I'm just trying to chase down a rumor/myth/story.
Any clues or possible places to search? So far, I haven't found anything.
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - eightyeightfan1 - 01-20-2010
Being from New England, I never heard of the New England Railroad. There was the Central New England, but that became part of the New Haven before the GG1 was built. I know GG1's did run into New Haven for awhile under AMTRAK, and GG1's have taken New Haven pasenger trains into Washington D.C.(Famous story of a GG1, hauling a New Haven train to Washington D.C. for a presidential inaugaration, losing its brakes and crashing into the concourse, where it fell though the floor. They rebuilt the floor over the top just in time, then remoeved it later after the inaugaration.)
What he probably heard was, a New Haven train being hauled by a Pennsy GG1. With the different electrical voltages between the Pennsy and New Haven, it might have been a steam/generator car used to power and heat the New Haven varnish.
Just a guess.
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - Herc Driver - 01-20-2010
Ya know - that's more info than I knew before - thanks!
I've found a picture or two of the later years of the GG-1 wearing the newly formed Amtrak colors using a HEP car (Head End Power?). The info led me to believe the HEP engine was used to push the GG1 along between the breaks in the catenary. Although this doesn't make a lot of sense to me...I mean...why would you bother to use an electric engine along with a diesel engine? Wouldn't you loose money on that kind of lashup? Still, the claim on the photo mentioned this "HEP" car.
The reason I'm searching for this possible car is to model one that I could use on my layout to supply power to a fictional GG1 excursion train. The idea being, the "generator car" would be a stipped down diesel loco without the cab and would follow the GG1, supplying power to run it. I suppose, since this whole idea is fictional, I could just "claim" there's a generator car that can do this and leave it at that. But, if there's the possibility that there really was a generator car like this...I'd like to try to find it for a prototype to model.
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - Puddlejumper - 01-20-2010
HEP cars are Head End Power cars. They are used to supply electricity to passenger cars that have been converted from steam heat to electric. Locomotives in the GG1 era had steam generators to supply steam to the consist. I imagine it would have been necessary to have HEP cars, then, since they were operated into the 80's and I believe Amtrak would have been making HEP standard by then. The GG1's replacements, the E60CP and AEM7 both had HEP.
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - Triplex - 01-22-2010
Actually, the E60CP had steam generators. The otherwise-identical E60CH had HEP.
I have seen pictures of a GG1 hauling Amfleets with a HEP car.
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - pennman - 01-25-2010
Just wanted to say thanks for the GG1 link thats a great page especially for someone like me who is an avid fan of the PRR and Penn Central RR.
Thanks again
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - Green_Elite_Cab - 04-08-2010
Puddlejumper Wrote:As far as I know, and I hope I am wrong, no GG1 will ever operate again unless the internal equipment is replaced to eliminate the hazardous PCBs that are inside some electrical components. Some federal EPA law or something like that. I can't see why a group couldn't combine, say, a GG1 and the components from a retired E44 or E60CP, but it is prolly expensive and difficult. Plus the cracked frame problem the GG1s were known for.
For a more direct answer, no, there is no such group or set up with an operating GG1 currently, but we can all hope one day there will be.
The only GG1 that had all of its electrical gear was 4800, but it had a main transformer failure (at which point conrail just donated the engine as-is to strasburg). Of course, when the EPA found out, they tore into old rivets and made sure she was dead. This is why she is sitting in that black paint out front, and not painted up in Pennsy pinstripes like it used to be.
Actually, the reason you can't do that is because the last E44A ALSO has all its electrical gear ripped out because of the PCBs and other things. I'm told the whole carbody is actually welded shut and it just sits at strasburg to look pretty.
Similarly, there are only two E60 locomotives left, one E60MA at strasburg, and an NJ transit E60CH on the Boontoon line. Maybe there are parts to a freight E60 out there, but still, the frames are pretty damaged, so its not likely they will run.
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - Puddlejumper - 04-08-2010
Thanks for the reply GEC! Regarding the frames, I recently read in Pennsy Electric Years that the cracking was so bad and obvious that the PRR often repainted the running gear of the GG1s, P5s, and P5as to cover up and therefore hide the cracks from the FRA inspectors. True? I don't know, I wasn't there but I believe it. It was a different world back then. The fines levid would be steep for that nowadays.
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - Green_Elite_Cab - 04-08-2010
Puddlejumper Wrote:Thanks for the reply GEC! Regarding the frames, I recently read in Pennsy Electric Years that the cracking was so bad and obvious that the PRR often repainted the running gear of the GG1s, P5s, and P5as to cover up and therefore hide the cracks from the FRA inspectors. True? I don't know, I wasn't there but I believe it. It was a different world back then. The fines levid would be steep for that nowadays.
I have that same book, and its true. I've personally inspected the cracks on some surviving units of that time. However, the real danger are "micro-fractures". I can't find it, but i saw a special photo taken of a GG1 frame showing these fractures. Its because of these millions microscopic fractures that you can't just "repair" a crack. the frames would literally shake themselves apart. While i personally believe those frames would still last, its still legitimate to say they aren't entirely stable anymore. The people in PRR, even in Conrail/Amtrak/NJT days would never be able to see them, but modern Technology makes them apparent.
However, the truth is, that while the frames are in rough shape, that can be fixed. What can't be solved is the lack of the antiquated electrical gear. I still don't understand what the difference is by using a different transformer rated for the same electricity to hypothetically power a rejuvenated GG1, but people on this board seem to think it would create a different feel.
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - Puddlejumper - 04-09-2010
Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:What can't be solved is the lack of the antiquated electrical gear. I still don't understand what the difference is by using a different transformer rated for the same electricity to hypothetically power a rejuvenated GG1, but people on this board seem to think it would create a different feel.
I'd be fine with putting modern electrical gear inside a GG1. I guess the problem is finding a proponent with deep enough pockets, and choosing which of the many remaining GG1s gets the makeover.
On an unrelated note, I wish they would cosmetically restore #4876 and put her on display in Washington somewhere. She, after all, has history there, having been the only GG1 to visit the basement of Washington Union Station.
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - Green_Elite_Cab - 04-09-2010
Puddlejumper Wrote:Green_Elite_Cab Wrote:What can't be solved is the lack of the antiquated electrical gear. I still don't understand what the difference is by using a different transformer rated for the same electricity to hypothetically power a rejuvenated GG1, but people on this board seem to think it would create a different feel.
I'd be fine with putting modern electrical gear inside a GG1. I guess the problem is finding a proponent with deep enough pockets, and choosing which of the many remaining GG1s gets the makeover.
On an unrelated note, I wish they would cosmetically restore #4876 and put her on display in Washington somewhere. She, after all, has history there, having been the only GG1 to visit the basement of Washington Union Station.
yeah, i think any one issue wouldn't be so horrible, but between there being nowhere to run a GG1, too many frame defects, and expensive re-powering, it just won't happen.
I do wish they would fix up 4876, but to be honest, i kinda wish they'd leave her in the NJ DOT scheme. It sounds dumb, but 4876 was my favorite GG1, and that was before i found out it fell into the basement. It just stood out to me. I'm sure a Pennsy paint scheme is in it's future though. I'm probably the odd man out here, but i think as much as we love the Pennsy, these engines did have a history on other roads. i know one is still in it's Penn Central paint, but still. As ugly and mundane as the black GG1 is, it ran commuter service up on the NY&LB or the corridor, and to someone, it was their ride home in that form. I just feel like people are so eager to wipe any hints of those Penn Central days (favoring PRR or Conrail era) that there won't be to much left to represent those times and places. It is history to, even if its not as pretty as Raymond Lowery's paint scheme.
Re: GG-1 Generator Car Powered - Puddlejumper - 04-10-2010
I'm fine with that. Just wish someone could do SOMETHING though! She looks horrid in her graffiti covered rust paint scheme. I fear she will eventually see the torch, as by the time anyone gets around to fixing her up she will be too far gone.
I'd like to see her placed in the grass on display in front of the station or something to that effect. There is actually plenty of space for it.