Prototype modeling - how far can you take it?
#16
Proto-lance vs. Proto-Freelance

I had never heard of Proto-lance before this thread, I recalled it as being Proto-Freelance. I could easily see where proto-freelance could be shortened by those whom discuss it frequently, but in the process, from searching the web, the loss of the "free" confuses most people as the initial question is if it is some sort of new hybrid of prototypical modeling and proto-freelance...the people whom refer to it as proto-lance answer the "what is" question by explaining what the person already knows as proto-freelance. I tried to search for a bit of one of Tony's columns on it, to see if the man whom coined the phrase (I think) used both or only one. I too recall his column about the end of the Midland Road...the advent of high quality, non-brass steam was the spark.

What would you consider the Union Central & Northern? I would consider it proto-freelance, but it conforms to the C&S's Clear Creek line so closely that I don't really see it as being freelance...even though the equipment is lettered for a different railroad. Basically, the layout is a prototypical layout, but the equipment is proto-freelance. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.bobhayden.com/product_info.php?products_id=26">http://www.bobhayden.com/product_info.p ... ucts_id=26</a><!-- m -->
Michael
My primary goal is a large Oahu Railway layout in On3
My secondary interests are modeling the Denver, South Park, & Pacific in On3 and NKP in HO
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#17
What would you consider the Union Central & Northern?
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Simply put its a freelance railroad since its has no given prototype even tho' it may follow C&S's Clear Creek line to the letter.

I have been ask time and again if my C&HV is protolance on C&O's Athens Sub Division.

It is NOT! Its a modern freelance short line operating over the former CSX Athens sub that CSX spun off to Rail America's Indiana and Ohio Railway.

In my world my CDB Industries won the bid to lease and operate this line..The line was even extended to Parkersburg WV and Jackson,Oh unlike I&O's track that ends in Logan
Larry
Engineman

Summerset Ry

Make Safety your first thought, Not your last!  Safety First!
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#18
Haha! Now we are discussing semantics. I love it!

Since proto-lance or proto-freelance is a bastardized word - its meaning could always be disputed unless one was to find who first coined the term and find the meaning attached to the first reference. Or perhaps its meaning is a reflection of how the term is used in the present. We know the term probably only applies to model railroading, and probably became widespread through print magazines. Of course, I have simply heard the term used from time to time and likely never read or heard the original usage. From the way I have heard the term used, I have always considered it to mean something between prototype and freelance, with the specifics undefined. A google search of "proto-lance" gets about 3000 hits, not all of them train-related Eek . "Proto-freelance" gets about 10,000 hits. Browsing the results of both searches, it seems the definition varies. Here is a page from a "proto-freelance" modeling group that explains a definition:

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Kevin
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#19
I think to get back to the original question, can you take prototype modeling any farther than Jack Burgess has taken his YVRR? He is modeling the railroad as it was on an August day in 1939. He has just done an article on kit bashing a Bachmann or IHC 4-4-0 as a stand in for a couple of locomotives on the YV until he has time to scratch build an exact replica! He held off on scratchbuilding some key structures until he had enough information to make the buildings exact replicas. I would not go to that extent to make a prototypical model railroad, but I admire what he has accomplished!
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#20
Kevin,The first time I heard the term was in the mid 60s when a local modeler describe his Santa Fe layout as being proto lance since it didn't follow any given location on the Santa Fe.
Larry
Engineman

Summerset Ry

Make Safety your first thought, Not your last!  Safety First!
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#21
Brakie Wrote:Kevin,The first time I heard the term was in the mid 60s when a local modeler describe his Santa Fe layout as being proto lance since it didn't follow any given location on the Santa Fe.

Interesting. The term is older than I would have guessed. Of course, in the early days, the concept of prototypical modeling was rather far fetched...and by the '60s, it had become a realistic goal...so the proto-(free)lance distinction was possible.
Michael
My primary goal is a large Oahu Railway layout in On3
My secondary interests are modeling the Denver, South Park, & Pacific in On3 and NKP in HO
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#22
nkp_174 Wrote:Actually, there was no prototype for the Gorre & Daphited.

I didn't say that there was.

nkp_174 Wrote:So the Gorre & Daphited was very believable because it was built on prototypical practices...but these practices weren't specific to any particular prototype railroad.

Hence why it is dubbed as a proto-freelance road.
- Proto: Practices and operations
- Freelance: Fictitious railroad

The Proto-Freelance Modelers Special Interest Group has an excellent welcome page outlining some of the finer points.
Tony
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#23
I guess I'd call the G&D a Freelanced model railroad despite the prototypical approaches and operations. Proto-freelance suggests to me that the railroad modeled is an actual prototype line but the complexities of modeling it exactly make the layout more of an impression of the railroad. My layout has a Penn Central theme but the communities and industries it serves are fictional...hence proto-freelanced, no?

Ralph
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#24
Ralph Wrote:I guess I'd call the G&D a Freelanced model railroad despite the prototypical approaches and operations. Proto-freelance suggests to me that the railroad modeled is an actual prototype line but the complexities of modeling it exactly make the layout more of an impression of the railroad. My layout has a Penn Central theme but the communities and industries it serves are fictional...hence proto-freelanced, no?

Yes, your road is proto-freelanced.

Thumbsup
Tony
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#25
viperman Wrote:I'm just using equipment from the major lines in my own way. And besides, I don't know of any logging operations in the area of Joliet either

My "logging" road, Shinnecock Hills Lumber Company, takes its name from Shinnecock Hills, L.I. N.Y., and there is no logging whatsoever, in "them thar hills"!

I guess you're taking it too far when:
*You photograph and model each individual tie, with the correct number of spikes, each with the exact rust pattern.
*You find the third spike south of mile post 22, has a 1956 quarter superglued to it, and you model it right down to the date on the quarter.
*You update all your rolling stock daily, with all the new graffiti, and bird droppings.
*You go out on the Wisconsin Central tracks, and pick up taconite pellets and grind them to exact scale for loads in your WC hoppers.
*Your LPB's wallets, have all their personal information,with photos, and cash in them.(including exact change in their pockets).
*You embroider the actual employee names on your LPB's company shirts. (in Z scale!!!)
*At the end of the day, each of your locos have the correct "bugsplat" pattern on the windshields.
We always learn far more from our own mistakes, than we will ever learn from another's advice.
The greatest place to live life, is on the sharp leading edge of a learning curve.
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#26
Ralph Wrote:I guess I'd call the G&D a Freelanced model railroad despite the prototypical approaches and operations. Proto-freelance suggests to me that the railroad modeled is an actual prototype line but the complexities of modeling it exactly make the layout more of an impression of the railroad. My layout has a Penn Central theme but the communities and industries it serves are fictional...hence proto-freelanced, no?

Ralph


Ralph,You model PC but,not any specific area so,its protolance..

Now if you said I model a PC urban industrial branch in Pittsburgh and every(or selected) industry on that branch was model then you are modeling a given area and not protolancing.

Now if your had a freelance railroad(let's call it Pittsburgh Industrial Rail) serving the same industrial branch its still freelance because PIR is not a real railroad since it doesn't have a prototype.


See how it works?
Larry
Engineman

Summerset Ry

Make Safety your first thought, Not your last!  Safety First!
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#27
nkp_174 Wrote:
Brakie Wrote:Kevin,The first time I heard the term was in the mid 60s when a local modeler describe his Santa Fe layout as being proto lance since it didn't follow any given location on the Santa Fe.

Interesting. The term is older than I would have guessed. Of course, in the early days, the concept of prototypical modeling was rather far fetched...and by the '60s, it had become a realistic goal...so the proto-(free)lance distinction was possible.


Actually the thought of prototype operation started in the 40's.In the 50's Brass and early RTR engines and easy to assemble plastic car kits made operation even more possible.

Frank Ellison wrote a 6 part article on prototype operation in the 40s.

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So,As you can see prototype operation isn't anything new including operators vs. builder debates that rage at hobby shops and mrr clubs..
Larry
Engineman

Summerset Ry

Make Safety your first thought, Not your last!  Safety First!
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#28
Brakie Wrote:Actually the thought of prototype operation started in the 40's.In the 50's Brass and early RTR engines and easy to assemble plastic car kits made operation even more possible.

Frank Ellison wrote a 6 part article on prototype operation in the 40s.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.trains.com/mrr/objects/pdf/august_online_extras_new_1.pdf">http://www.trains.com/mrr/objects/pdf/a ... _new_1.pdf</a><!-- m -->


So,As you can see prototype operation isn't anything new including operators vs. builder debates that rage at hobby shops and mrr clubs..

That's not what I mean by prototype modeling. Model railroading's infancy was before the 1940s. And as for "operation"...I can operate an 0-4-0t prototypically on 12" of track...therefore, such a liberal definition of "proto-freelance" bears no meaning as it extends to all extremes. John Allen made a distinction between just "running" trains and "operating" them...and that is the basic jist of what Mr. Delta Lines is saying in that article. You can operate a spaghetti bowl just like a real railroad...many articles of that period seemed to point that out. It doesn't make the layout "prototypical" nor does it make the equipment "prototypical"...just as my stratocaster isn't any more of a rock guitar than it is a country guitar...as such is a product of the person playing it. Having my friend who is really into operation run my layout doesn't change it from freelance to proto-freelance...as the layout is unchanged.

Only the most skilled could attempt to model their railroad of choice back with Cliff Grandt built his 1:96th scale locomotive (half o-scale). Few attempts were made in the tinplate era for this very reason...it was tough to do. Even when things did get going, with the post-ww2 boom, I'm under the impression that it was very difficult to really build up a roster representative of most real railroads...but it got easier as Max Gray gave way to PFM and thousands of imports...so long as you had the cash, skill, and time.

A freelance heisler, in my opinion, needs to follow the actual practices of the Heisler locomotive company to be believable. For instance, Heislers drivers were 30"-40" in diameter...On30 heisler conversions based on the HO heislers look cartoonish because they violate the prototypical practices. Would you call this proto-freelance? I would call it a toy...for it isn't very believable even though it may be super detailed. Anyone remember the miniland caricatures? On the contrary, a completely freelanced geared locomotive, not infringing upon the Heisler patents, could have 22" drivers. Yet, I'm sure that plenty of people would enjoy such a model...just as I enjoy my electrically powered "steam" engines.

If "operation" is a product of the person at the throttle, how can it be a product of the layout? I don't see how...but I do see how a layout can lend itself to being more or less believable...and give more or less operational interest. For me, that means a long run with passenger stations...while, IIRC, that means a nice yards for Russ B.

2-8-2, what is freelance operation, since you are distinguishing between them?

If someone is purely a builder, and never runs their trains, is their layout considered to be a prototypical operation or a freelance operation? Similarly, does operating a completely fictitious layout cause it to conform to a prototype?
Michael
My primary goal is a large Oahu Railway layout in On3
My secondary interests are modeling the Denver, South Park, & Pacific in On3 and NKP in HO
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://thesouthparkline.blogspot.com/">http://thesouthparkline.blogspot.com/</a><!-- m -->
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#29
A layout by any other name is still a layout.

William Shakespeare (or was it Casey Jones?) Misngth
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#30
Sumpter250 Wrote:*You find the third spike south of mile post 22, has a 1956 quarter superglued to it, and you model it right down to the date on the quarter.
Speaking of which, I've had an idea in my mind for a while to put one small drop of silver paint on a rail, and have it look like someone is putting a coin there for the train to flatten
-Steven-

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