Prototype modeling - how far can you take it?

[sgtcarl1]

Not to upset anyone, (I've been really enjoying this thread,) but isn't this kinda sorta like arguing over how many angels can stand on the head of a pin???

[nachoman]

Not to upset anyone, (I've been really enjoying this thread,) but isn't this kinda sorta like arguing over how many angels can stand on the head of a pin???

Four.

[2-8-2]

In its most generic form, "operation" is simply moving trains around. But in digging deeper, let's take a look at what that entails:

- Types of motive power used
- Freight/passenger car roster
- Available trackage
- Era and industry practices
- Differences in practices of a particular railroad
- Loads in/empties out or inbound/outbound
- Signal styles and other options (including intermodal)

While the depths of operation is largely up to the modeler, knowingly or not, the process begins with the layout. John Armstrong wrote extensively about the benefits of layout planing and prototypical operation. The word prototype means "the original of which a model is based" or "something that serves to illustrate the typical qualities of a class". I'm not trying to start an argument here, but it seems that the hybrid nature and freedom of choice aspect of proto-freelance is being ignored, which is the only point I was trying to make. It is entirely possible to model certain aspects of operations prototypically, and take liberties with others.

[nachoman]

Back to the original subject...I was looking at the windows that are going in my kitbash challenge building and noticed a problem. I am planning on modeling summer - but the windows are closed! For those of us modeling pre-AC summer time, wouldn't you expect the windows to be wide open?

Now how to make the windows look open...

[Russ Bellinis]

I think the first question to ask before you try to open the windows is how would the windows operate? re they crank out, double or single hung sliders, or tilt out? I think once you know how the windows would operate, it is easier to figure out how to model them open.

[Squidbait]

Jack Burgess has done an excellent job of modelling the Yosemite Valley RR in August 1939. I think you can get very specific in your prototypical modelling if you set realistic limits on what you intend to model.

Trying to model the entire PRR on July 3, 1954 would be impossible, due to the scale. Trying to model almost any large railroad facility (such as a yard) in exact scale detail would likewise be tough due to space constraints. Choosing to represent a small railroad or section of one in a specific instant or period in time is not so hard, so long as you're willing to do the research and make reasonable compromises (e.g. selective compression).

You can get photos, timetables, equipment registers, waybills, all sorts of documentation to tell you what was where and when for most railroads - if you're willing to dig. Mapping a town is easy if you can find fire-insurance maps - they show the buildings and detail the industries/businesses contained therein, and show where the railroad track are. Much more detailled than topo maps.

For a common-carrier, apart from home-built rolling stock or custom-built steam locos, rolling stock is readily available. For the specific stuff, there's no reason you can't build it yourself if you're motivated enough. Same for structures.

But most people aren't that worried about the specifics. They want to run trains, not model a specific place and time. Or they want to create the impression of an area or era - not model it down to the last blade of grass. For them, the task is much easier, since the devil isn't in the exact details, but in merely recreating a mood or feel.

That's the great thing about model railroading - you can put as much or as little into it as you want... whatever makes you happy.

[Squidbait]

If you know ahead of time, you can get working sliding windows from Imagine That! models. He'll even custom-cut to fit your application (if you've got the money )

[nachoman]

I wonder if Jack Burgess has gone so far as to research San Joachin valley newspapers from August 1939 and incorporate some of those elements into his layout. He seems to have done more research than most, even trying to capture certain land contrours.

[Squidbait]

I wouldn't be surprised. It's been his obsession (or so it would seem) for 20 years or more.

Several of the scenes on the layout were done from photographs of the time (like the bathtub-water trough for the cows).

[jim currie]

Back to the original subject...I was looking at the windows that are going in my kitbash challenge building and noticed a problem. I am planning on modeling summer - but the windows are closed! For those of us modeling pre-AC summer time, wouldn't you expect the windows to be wide open?

Now how to make the windows look open...

Tichy has several windows that come open or can be opened .
jim

[nkp_174]

The Grandt Line passenger car windows I have can be mounted open, closed, or moveable.

All of my windows are built as frames with groves so that they can move up and down. I don't like the idea of them being fixed. I haven't added any windows to my clerestories as I'd like to make them openable (either swiveling or drop in)...but it wasn't abnormal that they didn't open all the way to the outdoors.

Ventilation was a major problem from the birth of rail travel. The big problem with open windows was that dust and soot would get in and get the passengers dirty. Anyone whom has experience with mainline steam knows what I mean. A bullnose clerestory roof would have a vent intake at each platform...the location was selected so as to minimize the amount to soot and dust that would enter the car. Interior walls within the coaches would rarely (if ever) extend through the clerestory...commonly a grate or turnings would fill that area so as not to restrict the airflow. There was a large assortment of various attempts to ventilate cars without opening the windows.

I tend to think that open windows were not as common as we may think. I'd bet that they were common when the train was stationary, but that few would want them open while they were moving. A major problem with studying this is that late 19th century photography wasn't exactly good at capturing movement...and the photos were usually staged. Further, photos were commonly of excursions...when people, especially railfans, were more likely to want to get dirty since it was an "experience" instead of a "journey". I haven't thought to check through the photos I have for such practices...but I probably have more photos of 1920s passenger trains than 90% of the railfan community...so I'll keep an eye out for it.

As a final note, the ventilation problem was finally solved with AC...and then the clerestory roof design died as Cor-10 (Pullman, AC&F) and Stainless (Budd) construction took over.

[Sumpter250]

Back to the original subject...I was looking at the windows that are going in my kitbash challenge building and noticed a problem. I am planning on modeling summer - but the windows are closed! For those of us modeling pre-AC summer time, wouldn't you expect the windows to be wide open?

Now how to make the windows look open...

There is nothing made, that can't be modified.

As I recall, the trick with double hung windows was to center both sashes so that hot air could escape from the top, and cool air could enter from the bottom. Whether true or not, a lot of people did just that, so it would be an option. An electric fan, on a table, just inside the window would be another option. Oh, you can cut up the kit windows that won't be visible, and use them to make the changes to those that are, if the window castings aren't well enough designed to be modified. Cut the frames away, leaving only the sashes, and then, on the visible windows, cut away only the sashes, adding the ones you cut the frames away from, in whatever position you want. The sashes can be sanded thinner if you want.

[nkp_174]

The more I think about it...some clerestory windows did not open. Instead, there was a shudder on the inside that could be opened or closed to keep the light in our out. I would suspect that such clerestories had some sort of ventilator systems on the sides. Thinking back to the various duckbill clerestories that I have in my memory, they usually (or always) had vents on the sides since the duckbill design precluded an air intake at the same location as on a bullnose roof.

You can see a bullnose roof air intake in the left most center picture here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://quickpicbooks.homestead.com/files/cscoachbook.htm">http://quickpicbooks.homestead.com/file ... chbook.htm</a><!-- m -->

[nachoman]

The more I think about it...some clerestory windows did not open. Instead, there was a shudder on the inside that could be opened or closed to keep the light in our out. I would suspect that such clerestories had some sort of ventilator systems on the sides. Thinking back to the various duckbill clerestories that I have in my memory, they usually (or always) had vents on the sides since the duckbill design precluded an air intake at the same location as on a bullnose roof.

You can see a bullnose roof air intake in the left most center picture here: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://quickpicbooks.homestead.com/files/cscoachbook.htm">http://quickpicbooks.homestead.com/file ... chbook.htm</a><!-- m -->

Man, I gotta get me some more reference materials. But I was talking more bout buildings than passenger cars. Buildings I would expect windows to be wide open on a sunny summer day. Passenger cars are a different conundrum - I would certainly expect windows to be closed if there are no passengers inside. I don't plan on modeling passengers in my cars, because I think that a passenger car full of people parked in a yard looks worse than an empty passenger car in a train. thus, I think I wil leave my passenger car windows closed.

[nkp_174]

Man, I gotta get me some more reference materials. But I was talking more bout buildings than passenger cars. Buildings I would expect windows to be wide open on a sunny summer day. Passenger cars are a different conundrum - I would certainly expect windows to be closed if there are no passengers inside. I don't plan on modeling passengers in my cars, because I think that a passenger car full of people parked in a yard looks worse than an empty passenger car in a train. thus, I think I wil leave my passenger car windows closed.

Oh! I misread this: "kitbash challenge building" as being...kitbash challenge (car) building instead of building as in a structure.

I'm always a touch too quick to think "passenger cars". I've only met a few passenger cars I didn't like...such as this one: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstock/CandS/dsp-passenger/coach_18-21a.htm">http://www.midcontinent.org/rollingstoc ... 18-21a.htm</a><!-- m -->

I agree that empty expresses look better than full cars in the coach yard...although I can't blame them for hanging out there! Lucius Beebe and Charles Clegg had the right idea in living in a private car. If only I could talk my wife into it...

I totally think that windows should be open in the pre-AC days...unless the wind was blowing the smoke from the neighbor's coal heat in that direction...