Prototype modeling - how far can you take it?

[nachoman]

I saw a curious film on PBS a year or so ago whose subject and title seem boring - Helvetica. Yes, the film was about the development of a font! From that film I learned what a "serif" is, and in some small way made more aware of what fonts I see in every day life, and why the designer chose to use that particular font. As boring as the subject matter is - every font was developed by someone for some particular purpose and made its first appearance on some particular date.

What does this have to do with model railroading? Well, at the time I was developing a sheet of custom decal signs for some buildings - and lo and behold some of my text was in Helvetica! Why does this matter? Helvetica was developed in 1957, and my layout is set in 1919. Not that I would ever expect anyone to notice - but that is the level of detail that one can research for their layout - if they want to go insane . So, perhaps you are making some signs for your layout. Simple billboards, street signs, station names or etcetera. Maybe it is important to pay attention to what fonts were common for your era - or you can just use what looks good The reality is, the standard fonts in Microsoft Word are probably all to modern for the discerning eye - unless you are modeling a modern era.

[nkp_174]

Fonts are definitely important. One of the distinguishing features of the DSP&P's 30' freight cars was that they were lettered with a block font instead of Roman.

Here's a minor lettering detail on the 765:

That is not my photo, it came from here:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://fiveprime.org/flickr_hvmnd.cgi?method=GET&page=6&photo_number=50&tag_mode=all&search_type=Tags&sorting=Interestingness&photo_type=250&noform=t&search_domain=Tags&sort=Date%20Posted,%20new%20first&textinput=owosso">http://fiveprime.org/flickr_hvmnd.cgi?m ... put=owosso</a><!-- m -->

That minor detail on the 765 is the curved tail "R"; a trait she had from 1944 until 1947. She received it a few days before the trip to Owosso. Similarly, the NKP had a smaller font they used on some locomotives before WW2...Athearn used it on their 2-8-2. Little things like that are very helpful for dating photos...both unpublished as well as those that are published with incorrect captions.

[doctorwayne]

The NKP also changed the lettering style on their freight cars, from this:
[album]1347[/album]

to this, in about 1943, although not all of the original cars would have been re-painted at that time:
[album]1346[/album]

There was yet another change to that pesky "R", I believe around 1948, that left the letter large, but straightened the ever-changing "tail" of the letter - I don't have a photo, as it's too modern for my modelled era. Surprisingly, perhaps, the curvy tail on the "K" remained.
The first photo, above, is the version in use on my layout, and is a repaint of the car seen in the second photo.

Wayne

[nkp_174]

Thanks for the info on that, Wayne. I haven't focused in on the freight car lettering as of yet...so it is nice to have some of the research done for me!

There was one other significant footnote on NKP freight car lettering, Nickel Plate High Speed Service. The cabooses began to receive that lettering in 1949, and a single boxcar received it...on one side. The NKP decided not to add it to their freight car fleet...but I think Cloverhouse offers that "what if".

[MountainMan]

Just out of curiousity, how far do you have to go to become a "rivet counter", and when does it stop being a hobby and become an obsession? :?

[nkp_174]

Just out of curiousity, how far do you have to go to become a "rivet counter", and when does it stop being a hobby and become an obsession? :?

I think that being a "rivet counter" is about as well defined as the line between prototype and freelance modeling...an extreme opposite a "toy train" person. Both are insults, but sometimes accepted.

I for one, won't accept a D&RGW anything lettered up for C&S...nor will I accept any of the B-man items lettered up for DSP&P. Same thing with USRA light 4-6-2s lettered up for NKP. Some may call me a rivet counter, but a casual examination of any photo with the models makes it clear that they are not models of those prototypes. For that matter, if I accept a USRA light 4-6-2 for an NKP 4-6-2, why stop there? Why not accept a USRA heavy 4-6-2, or an IHC hudson?
Tiny pic of NKP pacific: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://nkphts.org/store/catpics/2010/nov.jpg">http://nkphts.org/store/catpics/2010/nov.jpg</a><!-- m -->
The same holds for just about any other locomotive you an think of.

The reality is, most modelers prefer better detailed models that are close to their prototype...but they don't like to be reminded of the inaccuracies of their own models/standards. I do care very much about the rivets on my models...as they are part of accurate modeling...but it is nearly impossible to know exactly how many rivets were used on an NKP K-1a pacific (or even some surviving locomotives that have been overhauled)...and so the term "rivet counting" illustrates some of the limitations that exist. I can't tell you how many complaints I've heard about the MMI D&RGW mikes...and most of them are about trivial matters that never would even be noticed on any other class of locomotives.

Modeling is about recreating, in miniature, real railroads...whether following a specific railroad as a prototype (prototype modeling), following no specific railroad (freelance modeling), or some measured following of a real prototype (proto-(free)lance modeling). If I spend an extra week adding working brake, I'm compromising in some other area (time not spent elsewhere). Rivet counting with your own models, or to put it differently, paying attention to details that others never notice, can be a very enjoyable aspect of modeling. To non-railfans, most modelers come across at rivet counters...it is a relative term. I really enjoy adding extra details that no one will notice...for it enriches the experience for me. I suspect that many others feel the same way. On the other hand, I don't care as much about my scenery or trackwork and so they frequently are neglected.

I like the South Park and NKP for the traits that made them what they were. In order to gain the same satisfaction from my models as from the real thing, I have to recreate them. I'm interested in car construction (more so than locomotive construction), and so I enjoy the extra effort in that area. The better I capture both of those roads, the more enjoyment I'll receive from my projects. You may call it rivet counting, you may not, but I call it fun.

[MountainMan]

So you do not subscribe to the concept that modeling is primarily for the pleasure of the individual doing it?

I regard "prototypical" modeling as museum quality work, myself. I admire it; I enjoy it, but I do not aspire to it, and I would be deeply offended if someone who did applied those standards to work I did which was not intended for that purpose.

And yet, amazingly, I find that the most strict prototypical modelers allow children to run Santa Claus trains at Christmas, the most massive contradiction of their own philosophy that is possible.

[nkp_174]

On the contrary, you completely miss the point. I only build models for the pleasure of it.

Here's a basic scale as to how much enjoyment I get out of watching a train run...scale of 0-100.

A string of B-man On30 freight cars lettered for C&S with an HO locomotive "converted" to On30 at the lead...rolling on EZ-track.
Enjoyment factor: 1. At least it's a train...

A string of B-man On30 freight cars lettered for a ficticious railroad and pulled by any old On30 locomotive...on a rudimentary layout with HO track.
Enjoyment factor: 10. I wouldn't spend my money on it, but I'll enjoy it. (-1 point is deducted if a drovers caboose is part of the train)

A string of Wiseman/Grandt Line/San Juan C&S freight cars converted to On30 behind an On30 locomotive on a decent layout with On30 track.
Enjoyment factor: 20. Getting much better

The same but On3 and kit built.
Enjoyment factor: 35...I'm enjoying myself now and wouldn't mind doing this sort of thing

The same but with an accurate C&S engine..
Enjoyment factor: 50.

A prototypically correct C&S freight or passenger train with at least some scratch built equipment and the rest either kitbashed or redetailed...no RTR.
Enjoyment factor: 100.

I enjoy the South Park's variety of freight cars. I enjoy the history of railroad brakes in the US. I enjoy the look of rough hewn ties with 35lb rail. I enjoy the distinctive style that sat Barney and Smith apart from Carter and Carter from Kimball and Kimball from J&S. I find that "rivet counting" when I build my models makes it far more enjoyable than opening a box and running stuff that I've built is far more enjoyable than stuff that was built in Guangzhou Provence or by someone else. It is for the very same reason that I appreciate the 1878 Litchfield boxcar sitting in the Como Roundhouse that I enjoy seeing a faithfully constructed On3 Litchfield boxcar. What is the threshold for it to be or not be a Litchfield boxcar? The brake rigging? The number of roof boards? The poling pockets? It's more fun for me to do it myself than assemble a resin kit...and if I'm doing the work, why not do it correct?

I do care what other people do. I greatly enjoy other people's quality modeling. But, manners and common sense dictate that I never criticize someone else's work unless they are a close friend and really want my opinion. I did come close to puking over the B-man mogul conversions in the current Gazette. The mogul looks nice, the ten wheeler is subpar, and the 2-8-0 is just plain terrible...but I'm not going to go out of my way to either criticize him nor to send him insults. I'm sure he enjoyed it...and he pocked a nice sum from Bob Brown. I suspect that some of the people whom enjoyed that article didn't care for the one I really liked: Boone Morrison's western photographers piece.

Prototypical modeling does not mean that your equipment is 100% specific to your prototype nor does it mean that you operate it exactly like the prototype nor does it mean that guest equipment isn't allowed. Building up a 100% DSP&P layout is for the satisfaction of recreating it. If people want to come over and operate it, then it will be 100% South Park. But the rest of the time it will also have: Oahu Railway passenger trains, Carson & Colorado freight trains, SPng freights, RGS passenger trains, EBT coal drags, D&RG 4-wheel cars, and various other trains that I'd like to build. I've thought about regauging a Thomas for when little kids come over to see my layout.

[2-8-2]

Some people will read the above from nkp_174 and say, "that's not what model railroading is about!" In fact, I completely disagree with his 0-100 enjoyment scale. And therein lies the greatness of this hobby....

There are standards that dictate that the model boxcar of Company A can be pulled by a loco from Company B on Company C's rails. We can all universally agree to a certain raw definition of what prototype modeling is, what freelance is, and even things in between. We can all appreciate great modeling, even if it's something we wouldn't do ourselves.

There are standards, but there are no rules. No prototype modeling checklist somewhere that says your layout must feature X number of open windows, or properly numbered and riveted rolling stock. This, above all else, is a hobby. It's an activity that we engage in for enjoyment, and only YOU can define what brings you enjoyment. If everyone's modeling were the same, we'd get bored and forums like this wouldn't need to exist. There'd be no reason to share ideas and photos.

[Ralph]

And yet, amazingly, I find that the most strict prototypical modelers allow children to run Santa Claus trains at Christmas, the most massive contradiction of their own philosophy that is possible.

I imagine they do that because they're good guys and enjoy welcoming kids into the hobby at a level they will appreciate.

Ralph

[Russ Bellinis]

I suspect that rivet counting as long as the individual is counting rivets on his own models is acceptable. It is also acceptable if an individual enters a model in an NMRA contest. The judges may not literally count rivets, but they will judge on some very strict guidelines. On the other hand, if I am visiting another modeler's layout, I think it would be out of place and impolite to start counting rivets or criticising another individuals model railroad. As an example David Barrow likes operation, he doesn't particularly care about scenery as far as I can tell. His latest domino layout is in a recent issue of MR and there is one domino with scenery on it, the rest are pretty much bare "dominoes" with some sidings and structures. I might not want to do it that way, but I really have no business criticising Dave for doing what he enjoys. I hope I'm careful here. When someone posts a picture or a track plan and asks for a critique, I try to be careful not to come across as a rivet counter.

[nkp_174]

Some people will read the above from nkp_174 and say, "that's not what model railroading is about!" In fact, I completely disagree with his 0-100 enjoyment scale. And therein lies the greatness of this hobby....

Actually, I would expect most everyone on here to disagree...and have their own. I said: "Here's a basic scale as to how much enjoyment I get out of watching a train run...scale of 0-100." Trucklover would place a very high score on SDs...and that is perfectly fine!

There are standards, but there are no rules. No prototype modeling checklist somewhere that says your layout must feature X number of open windows, or properly numbered and riveted rolling stock. This, above all else, is a hobby. It's an activity that we engage in for enjoyment, and only YOU can define what brings you enjoyment. If everyone's modeling were the same, we'd get bored and forums like this wouldn't need to exist. There'd be no reason to share ideas and photos.

That is part of the reason that I have little interest in post-Depression D&RGW/RGS modeling. It seems like everyone (NG) is modeling one or the other, either as a freelance or prototypical railroad. I'm glad that B-man brought out their On30 line as they did because it added variety (some good, some bad). If the DSP&P was a really common prototype for modeling, I'd probably be working on an Oahu Railway, SPng, NCNG, or such layout. Like Russ says, I don't criticize D&RGW modelers, and I do enjoy to see their layouts, even though I'd really love (when reading the Gazette) to see them modeling more of the numerous, awesome NG railroads...or coming up with really original freelance roads.

[doctorwayne]

I think that Russ hit the nail (or rivet) right on the head concerning rivet counters. Those who count their own rivets do so for their own satisfaction, while those who count others' rivets (contests and requests for critiques aside) are just plain mean spirited and miss the whole point of our hobby. It must really drive them nuts when they see work by someone who is not concerned in the least about "rivet counting", yet still derives great satisfaction from their own way of modelling.

I've been called a rivet counter (among other things), and took it as a great compliment, although it may not have been intended as such. Still, we each seek our own satisfaction from this hobby, and need please no one but ourselves. If someone else is pleased with what we've done, perhaps that may add to our enjoyment, but, for me, someone's disapproval or criticism is pretty much inconsequential.

Wayne

[nachoman]

Just out of curiousity, how far do you have to go to become a "rivet counter", and when does it stop being a hobby and become an obsession? :?

Ah!!! The question I was after when starting this thread!

I think this is different for different people. I tend to agree with you that at some point I would quit having fun as my obsession toward prototype fidelity would stifle my productivity. A good portion of my enjoyment of this hobby is to physically be able to see or hold what I have accomplished. If I don't get things accomplished fast enough, i get discouraged and lose interest.

Another point of this thread was to illustrate even the most adherent of "rivet counters" can still take things to a greater level of detail. I spent the afternoon at a county records office looking at maps and deeds from property surveys that were over 100 years old. Some of these deeds were originally filed with the Mexican government, before Arizona territory was part of the USA. Most of what I was researching were original sale deeds and right of way surveys for the El Paso and Southwestern Railroad. Through my research (that I was doing for work and not for hobby) I uncovered some tidbits about the EP&SW that could be useful to someone who wants to faithfully model that line. Some of these were maps and dates showing alignments, stations, bridges, replacements of bridges - all stuff that isn't available in the typical railroad oriented history book. Some of these deeds even listed specific locations where the railroad was allowed to dig in order to obtain ballast material. Yep - a search through a land deed could lead you to the exact place where your railroad dug its ballast so that you could go to that location, collect samples yourself to crush and use on your layout. There are records of more things than you care to think - so long as you are willing to search for them and spend a long time reading old documents and dusty old books.

[Charlie B]

The hobby is for fun, When it becomes an obsession it is time for the guys with the white coats. As for rivet counters, no problem as long as they are counted silently. Rivet counting is good, it teaches math and demonstrates that said person can count to ten. I find most rivet counters have passed into the next step, which I call the SOB step. That is when they demonstrate how they can count to others. It is interesting to note that many times they are wrong and don't know it.
I had one guy here arguing about the color of P&LE cabooses. Said they were never red. He was quite wrong, and I had color pictures to show him. Even found some red under the green and yellow paint on our 2 P&LE cabooses. He still didn't admit he was wrong.
Charlie