WOOHOO! Good weather = time to build

[doctorwayne]

Your photos take me back to the days when I did house framing during the summers when I was still in high school.

So why aren't you down here helping me?!!

That was like almost (ahem) 20 years ago (cough, ahem).

It looks good, they really start to take shape once the roof starts to go on. Looks like a really solid structure you got there.

I was on my way out the door to come down to help you, too, Gary, when I heard about that big snowstorm in the eastern U.S. - with no snow tires on my car, I decided to not chance it.
It's been over 20 years since I built my house (and I wasn't anywhere near high school at that time), so I probably wouldn't have been much help anyway. I am surprised that you opted for a built-up roof, though: that building is ideally suited to a truss-type roof, which would have allowed you to put the centre wall anywhere or even not use it at all. I do realise that it'd be difficult to move the trusses using a pick-up truck, though.

Your dimensioned drawing (giving new meaning to "feet" and inches) is somewhat confusing, though, as I was sure that your plan looked like this:


Did you have to get planning permission to move the door to the opposite wall?

Wayne (Blueprint? We doan need no steenkin' blueprint!)

[Beamish]

(sighs) Yeah, I guess it wold be a bit far to drive!! But, don't be surprized that everything is square and level!! It looks to me like you know what you're doing!! And, I'm glad you aren't using nails! It takes 10 nails to equal the holdiing power of one screw!!!

I have made the debate of screw vs nail many times and seen that there is pros to both. I have some experience in demolition of wood structures and here is the thing I noticed. Nails tend to bend instead of breaking. Try knocking out an existing stud and look at the results. Screws are so hard that they will break off rather than bend. The screws just don't have the shear strength that nails do. However after doing some internet research I have found people that like both methods. In my DIY and construction I tend to use a combination of the two.

[tetters]

(sighs) Yeah, I guess it wold be a bit far to drive!! But, don't be surprized that everything is square and level!! It looks to me like you know what you're doing!! And, I'm glad you aren't using nails! It takes 10 nails to equal the holdiing power of one screw!!!

I have made the debate of screw vs nail many times and seen that there is pros to both. I have some experience in demolition of wood structures and here is the thing I noticed. Nails tend to bend instead of breaking. Try knocking out an existing stud and look at the results. Screws are so hard that they will break off rather than bend. The screws just don't have the shear strength that nails do. However after doing some internet research I have found people that like both methods. In my DIY and construction I tend to use a combination of the two.

I'd use a nail gun and nails for framing. Experience tells me it makes for sturdy and strong structure. Even when framing my deck I used galvanized nails for the joists, however I did use screws for the actual decking on top. It think when buidling something this large you have to look at the how eventually it all ties in together. A wall by itself will fall over and or break when someone sneezes. Four walls bolted to a concrete foundation, plus a roof on top, and all sheathed in plywood fastened together by whatever mechanical means will create a solid and durable structure that should last many lifetimes.

[doctorwayne]

I'm not completely sold on the advantages of nail guns, at least for framing. After the sticky coating on the nails deteriorates (and it will, sooner or later) you've got plain (non-spiral) nails holding things together, something for which straight nails weren't especially noted. Even when tearing shipping skids apart for use as firewood, the only ones with which I'd bother were those that had been assembled with plain nails - I would assume that they were put together with nail guns, as there were thousands of them. (Actually, the main reason for tearing them apart was because it made them easier to load into my pick-up - they weighed in excess of 300lbs. apiece. ) The rest, it was easier to just cut them up, nails and all.

Wayne

[MountainMan]

I would approach it the way I did building decks - structural members are bolted solidly together, and all other members are screwed onto that using appropriate fasteners where needed, such as hurricane ties and joist hangers for joists. Very solid, but easy to repair or replace if need be, and capable of carrying a heavier load that conventionally built structures using nail-guns and "stick-um".

[Gary S]

I was on my way out the door to come down to help you, too, Gary, when I heard about that big snowstorm in the eastern U.S. - with no snow tires on my car, I decided to not chance it. It's been over 20 years since I built my house so I probably wouldn't have been much help anyway.

Darn that snow! Although I sincerely doubt the veracity in your statement of "I probably wouldn't have been much help," I could have certainly used some moral support and good advice!

I am surprised that you opted for a built-up roof, though: that building is ideally suited to a truss-type roof, which would have allowed you to put the centre wall anywhere or even not use it at all. I do realise that it'd be difficult to move the trusses using a pick-up truck, though.

I would have rather used trusses also, but I didn't want to go through the "hassle" of ordering them and having them delivered, then having to store them til I was ready, and then having to either rent some type of lift or manhandle (= struggle) them up on top. Certainly the trusses would have made the building go up quicker though. For my well house (14 x 30) I built my own trusses.

Your dimensioned drawing (giving new meaning to "feet" and inches) is somewhat confusing, though, as I was sure that your plan looked like this:


Did you have to get planning permission to move the door to the opposite wall?

Oh noooooo! I had the blueprint upside down when I built the building!!! Does this mean I have to start all over? :o

[nachoman]

that looks like fun! glad to hear you have family help. I'd be over to help if I lived near, but since I don't I will have fun with my own house squeezing insulation into the attic

[Gary S]

Beamish, Tetters, DocWayne, Mountain Man:

I appreciate the discussion on screws versus nails. There are good points to each. I definitely prefer screws over nails for a few reasons. I personally think it results in a stronger finished product. With hammer and nails, when pounding in one, sometimes you are making others get loose. We've all seen that. With screws, that is not an issue. Of course, a good carpenter probably knows the procedures to lessen the loose nail syndrome, but nobody ever said I was a carpenter!

A screw definitely has more "suction" to pull the framing members together and make tight joints. I like that. For example, the rafter is a little warped, and it needs to be connected to the ceiling joist which is straight. With the screw, bingo, sucked together nice and tight. With the nails, I suppose you'd have to hammer in a couple at different angles to get the joint to hold.

Nail gun? I don't have a compressor, plus it is much easier to carry around the DeWalt drill versus that HEAVY nail gun!

As for shear strength, if those deck screws are actually breaking, then the building was coming down anyway! Nails wouldn't have done any better! Seriously, I can't think of anyplace where there would be enough shear to break a 3" long deck screw. Or actually 3 or 4 screws! I use alot, I am sure more than needed.

Most of the load bearing members are resting on other members anyway. Rafters and joists on walls or the center beam/posts. Walls on concrete. The screws just hold everything in place (and tightly too.) Well, except where the ceiling joists tie to the beam. I used metal hangers for that.

Those are just my thoughts. I am certainly not an engineer so everything I said above is strictly anecdotal!

I think MountainMan has it right. Bolt all the major structural stuff together, then screw the rest. I have some 3/8 all-thread rod that I plan to use to tie the center beam members together.

I will say that using the screws is definitely slower than a nail gun. Especially considering that I am drilling pilot holes for the screws. For example, connecting a 2x4 to another - drill the hole in the first board, then run the screw through and into the second board. This makes for a super-tight joint!

Thanks again for the interesting commentary!

[Gary S]

Oh yeah...

Tetters has it exactly right. It is the sheathing (and to a certain extent, the sheetrock) that really ties everything together. Of course, "triangled" framing members certainly help also.

[Gary S]

Nachoman - I appreciate the thought.

It has been nice having my daughter help me. I have been able to show her a few things, and some father/daughter time. Of course, with her being a teenager, I'm sure there are other things she'd rather be doing.

Here's a pic of where I was at around 2pm today. All rafters and joists in, and screwed down. Next step is to cut off the rafter ends and get the fascia installed so I can deck the roof. Oh... still have to frame out the gable ends to account for the brick.

It started raining today. But only off and on, so I still accomplished some things. Supposed to rain again tomorrow, so I am probably going to go in to my real job for awhile. Then again, maybe not.

   

Thanks to everyone for the interest in my project.

Gary

[Jesso]

It is looking great! Sure does look like a fun project.

[Russ Bellinis]

Oh noooooo! I had the blueprint upside down when I built the building!!! Does this mean I have to start all over? :o

Only if the roof is where the floor is supposed to be the and the floor is now on top!

[Gary S]

Jesso: In ways, it is fun to build something like this, and satisfying too. But ouch, my knees and elbows and back are aching a bit. I used to be darned tough, but not so much in my older years!

Russ: The roof is definitely on top, so I guess I did it right.

It is raining today, so I came in to my real job (just to get some rest...)

Hopefully will be back at it tomorrow.

[tetters]

Beamish, Tetters, DocWayne, Mountain Man:

I appreciate the discussion on screws versus nails. There are good points to each. I definitely prefer screws over nails for a few reasons. I personally think it results in a stronger finished product. With hammer and nails, when pounding in one, sometimes you are making others get loose. We've all seen that. With screws, that is not an issue. Of course, a good carpenter probably knows the procedures to lessen the loose nail syndrome, but nobody ever said I was a carpenter!

A screw definitely has more "suction" to pull the framing members together and make tight joints. I like that. For example, the rafter is a little warped, and it needs to be connected to the ceiling joist which is straight. With the screw, bingo, sucked together nice and tight. With the nails, I suppose you'd have to hammer in a couple at different angles to get the joint to hold.

Nail gun? I don't have a compressor, plus it is much easier to carry around the DeWalt drill versus that HEAVY nail gun!

As for shear strength, if those deck screws are actually breaking, then the building was coming down anyway! Nails wouldn't have done any better! Seriously, I can't think of anyplace where there would be enough shear to break a 3" long deck screw. Or actually 3 or 4 screws! I use alot, I am sure more than needed.

Most of the load bearing members are resting on other members anyway. Rafters and joists on walls or the center beam/posts. Walls on concrete. The screws just hold everything in place (and tightly too.) Well, except where the ceiling joists tie to the beam. I used metal hangers for that.

Those are just my thoughts. I am certainly not an engineer so everything I said above is strictly anecdotal!

I think MountainMan has it right. Bolt all the major structural stuff together, then screw the rest. I have some 3/8 all-thread rod that I plan to use to tie the center beam members together.

I will say that using the screws is definitely slower than a nail gun. Especially considering that I am drilling pilot holes for the screws. For example, connecting a 2x4 to another - drill the hole in the first board, then run the screw through and into the second board. This makes for a super-tight joint!

Thanks again for the interesting commentary!

Its good to have an exchange like this without it degenerating into an insult-fest.

I've seen it happen on too many other boards where someone will post a topic, another person or two will offer an opinion, and then eventually along comes some one else who calls everyone an arse gets the other posters all wound up and then it all falls apart. When instead a meaningful and informative discussion could have taken place. I mean its the internet for cryin' out loud.

A wise old friend once told me that opinions are like backsides, everyone has one and most of them stink. :?



Now then. On with the build. Sending good vibes for good weather. :ugeek:

[Gary S]

Thanks Tetters,

In the past, I had always assumed that the screws were better than nails. I thought that nails were used only because they were faster and cheaper. Now I am giving it more thought.

I looked around the internet and found opinions for both sides. I did not find any scientific studies or anything. I did find a video of a guy with a nail, a deck screw, and a sheetrock screw driven about 3/4 of their lengths into a board, and then he smacks them with a hammer. The drywall screw breaks right off, the deck screw breaks after several whacks, but the nail just bends. I'm not sure that this is a proper test however. A better test may be to actually fasten a board to the other board, with the fasteners driven properly, and then pound on the board. I think the screw may do better on this type of shear because some of the force is going to be transferred to a "pull" on the fastener.

I can think of a few ways to test this myself, of course, lacking scientifc instruments to determine the actual load at failure, etc.

I was surprised that the "drywall" screw snapped so easily. Mostly I am using the gray colored deck screws - I'm glad of that.

I wish I could find some actual engineering studies, because again, I don't think the "shear" is as important as some of the internet info makes it seem.

But dang it, you guys have me considering going back and adding nails in addition to the screws!!!!

Good stuff!