GG-1 Generator Car Powered
#16
PCBs. Nasty stuff. Some towns used to spray PCB contaminated waste oil on dirt roads for dust control. The PCBs got into the groundwater and were pumped out by domestic wells and drank. The result was extremely high cancer rates and developmental and birth defects. My dad recently had a cousin die of cancer. The man was only in his 50s, and my dad remarked that a lot of his relatives got cancer at a young age and was worried it ran in the family. They all live in small towns in rural Alabama and depend upon their own wells for drinking water. I suspect the cancer rates have to do with a pollutant that leached into the groundwater rather than genetics. PCBs, Nitrates, TCE... all nasty stuff. It's probably best the transformers were ripped out of the GG1s to render them inoperable.
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#17
Puddlejumper Wrote:I'm fine with that. Just wish someone could do SOMETHING though! She looks horrid in her graffiti covered rust paint scheme. I fear she will eventually see the torch, as by the time anyone gets around to fixing her up she will be too far gone.

I'd like to see her placed in the grass on display in front of the station or something to that effect. There is actually plenty of space for it.

well, as long as all the wholes are patched so that the water can't get in, she'll probably last a little while longer. I fixed up a Wood CNJ caboose that was sitting un-maintained for longer than this GG1 (and was built 30 years before 4800) for an eagle project once. I can't imagine that the GG1 wouldn't be able to handle the elements. I'm sure they can find volunteers willing to patch the windows and such.
Modeling New Jersey Under the Wire 1978-1979.  
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#18
nachoman Wrote:PCBs. Nasty stuff. Some towns used to spray PCB contaminated waste oil on dirt roads for dust control. The PCBs got into the groundwater and were pumped out by domestic wells and drank. The result was extremely high cancer rates and developmental and birth defects. My dad recently had a cousin die of cancer. The man was only in his 50s, and my dad remarked that a lot of his relatives got cancer at a young age and was worried it ran in the family. They all live in small towns in rural Alabama and depend upon their own wells for drinking water. I suspect the cancer rates have to do with a pollutant that leached into the groundwater rather than genetics. PCBs, Nitrates, TCE... all nasty stuff. It's probably best the transformers were ripped out of the GG1s to render them inoperable.

The thing is, PCBs aren't going to hunt you down and kill you as an individual. If a transformer was kept closed and checked to make sure it didn't leak (and even if it did leak a little), there would not likely be enough PCBs in a GG1 to do you serious damage unless it reached some unprotected skin, and even though it can cause terrible affects like Chloracne, it doesn't really make it any less safe or different than half the stuff you have in the average chem lab. In other words, keep the locomotive locked and only have specialized personnel working with the transformer, just like you would any other risky machine.

PCB's Primary danger is that it is persistent and can build up in an organisms fat tissue until it reaches unsafe levels and can cause problems. You are mostly correct with your groundwater example, this sort of thing has happened in several places where large quantities of PCBs have been set loose into the soil. However, i think in the case of historic items, like the GG1s and many other historic electric equipment, PCBs are not present in the numbers to cause a serious threat to the surrounding area, and if those parts of the machine that contain PCBs (with the exception of things that have a safer substitute) are properly checked and maintained safely, It is not likely that they will ever cause anyone serious harm. common sense will keep you safe with PCBs.

Not saying we should bring PCBs back, but when it comes to a few historic pieces, i see no reason that an exception cannot be made.

what is is interesting is that PCBs aren't really known for cancer, but are listed as "probable". while there may be some links, there are only a few scientific studies with any evidence to show. Once again, not supporting PCBs, but there is a good chance they just tacked on "probable carcinogen" to PCBs for political reasons. I too thought it was super nasty until i did a report on the bio-remediation of it, and many of the tests on animals and such did not show many positive results (aka, some rats got cancer after three years, but this is the normal life span of a rat and cancer is usually what kills rats in the end anyway). however, you're spot on with the birth defects. It can actually turn your male baby into a female baby (and takes the train gene with it, usually). Ingesting it can cause liver problems and PCBs have annihilated large quantities of birds when enough of the PCBs have been allowed to spill into the environment.

One of the reasons i love my major (Biotechnology) is that i can help fix problems like PCBs. PCBs aren't impossible to safely destroy naturally, it is just not the easiest route for natural process to take (and they as a rule 98% take the easiest route). PCBs have Chlorine atoms on them that make them super stable, and also makes it possible for them to form into deadly related compounds if they decompose improperly. However, research has revealed that some bacteria, with coaxing, will break down PCBs to a new compound that is readily devoured by just about every other natural microbe.

so far, a few labs are working on isolating the superior versions of these microbes (which can be tricky), and then trying to produce them in large enough quantities to make a difference. The sheer numbers you'd need to start making a dent are huge, but the industry is growing, and this is a fairly reasonable option once the bacteria that like PCBs are isolated and it is discovered how to make them grow to huge numbers. Its cheaper than dredging or digging up all the contaminated soil and throwing it into the hottest blast-furnaces you can find (which is the current incredibly ridiculously expensive method for removing PCBs from existence).

The best part, is these bacteria are selected (note that they are not engineered) from the group so that they need PCBs. this means they aren't some new super-bacteria, just a higher concentration of a natural strain that will severely drop in population (aka back to normal levels) after PCB contamination is gone in this area. This means for you Environmentally friendly folks, the bacteria won't mess with the environment or require dredging/digging.
Modeling New Jersey Under the Wire 1978-1979.  
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#19
Ah... but you are forgetting one important link - lawyers. You are absolutely right, that PCBs in a sealed transformer are more than likely not going to hurt someone. But, should some former museum worker, or a neighborhood kid get cancer, and the layer can find one teeny tiny leak in the GG1 transformer, it is all over. Why? These railroad museums are usually non-profit and cannot afford to defend themselves against a shark lawyer out for $$$. Same is true with asbestos. A lot of asbestos is harmless. And most of the danger from asbestos comes during mining, installation, or removal. If it is sealed up in a building, the danger is minimal. But, due to the bad PR with that mineral, places would rather pay for the costly removal than wind up with a lawsuit from someone that gets sick.
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#20
nachoman Wrote:Ah... but you are forgetting one important link - lawyers. You are absolutely right, that PCBs in a sealed transformer are more than likely not going to hurt someone. But, should some former museum worker, or a neighborhood kid get cancer, and the layer can find one teeny tiny leak in the GG1 transformer, it is all over. Why? These railroad museums are usually non-profit and cannot afford to defend themselves against a shark lawyer out for $$$. Same is true with asbestos. A lot of asbestos is harmless. And most of the danger from asbestos comes during mining, installation, or removal. If it is sealed up in a building, the danger is minimal. But, due to the bad PR with that mineral, places would rather pay for the costly removal than wind up with a lawsuit from someone that gets sick.

you're probably right. Luckily, PCB levels are easily tested for. If there was enough to cause a problem, you'd be able to detect it in said person's body. If they can't detect any PCB levels beyond normal, they can't really make a claim.

Besides this is what Legal Waivers are for. If i remember correctly, the GG1s gained 10 years because the government already allowed them to run with their PCB transformers even after they determined they wanted PCBs to go away. Otherwise, they would have been long gone before Conrail. I'm pretty sure many of those tanks you see on road-side telephone poles still have PCBs in them and leak all the time with few people realizing it.
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