The Quality of train shows today
#16
Sumpter250 Wrote:There are three "shows" that are annual offerings in my area. The Dupage County show,( aka "the junk show" ) is a swap meet type show, but is predominantly trains, all scales, with a heavier influence on Lionel. I've found and bought several brass locos there.
The High Wheeler train show, Harper college, Palatine Illinois, is more of a layout show with some vendors, mostly train related.
Trainfest, Milwaukee,Wi., is probably the largest display layout show in the nation. There are manufacturers, and vendors, but mostly operating layouts, and trains. Z,N,HO,S,O,large scale, live steam.

The High Wheeler show ( Fox Valley div. NMRA ) is this weekend Mar. 6-7, 9:00AM-5:00 PM. Admission, cash only Adults (13 and over) $7.00...Seniors over 65 $6.00, Kids 5-12 $2.00, under 5 free. I'm going to try to be out there on the 6th. This is the 32nd year for this show.


The last time I went to the "Junk Show". I thought it was pretty good. Of course, I had been there before and it was an annoying experience.
I came across alot of good deals, and even managed to source someone who does custom ho painting. His prices are very fair, and from the examples he had displayed, the quality was superb. I also managed to locate alot of items I can not seem to find at the LHS or Walthers, lot's of Pere Marquette offerings. Most where discontinued items, but they where complete and most still had the original box.
There were quite a few "Flea Market" vendors there too, but not so many that it took the focus off the trains.

There is another one in the Champaign/Urbana area. I don't recall the name off the top of my head, but it is strictly 2 rail modeling. If it does not meet that criteria it is not allowed in. I have never been to this show, but I would love to go.

Matt
Don't follow me, I'm lost too.
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#17
I don't get to train shows, but about twice a year. I am surprised that Roanoke, which prides itself on being a "railroad" town, doesn't have any trainshows. Maybe it just isn't considered a large enough area. But if they take in the population of the surrounding areas, (especially Salem and Richmond,) they could draw a rather large crowd. Maybe someday.
I only know what I know, and I don't understand very much of it, either.
Member: AEA, American Legion, Lions Club International
Motto: "Essayons"
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#18
I used to go to several shows every year (4-5). Lately maybe one and it is more a toy show, Last year I got a Tonka truck for my grandson. The one really good local one was a Christmas one. They started going toward attracting small kids with Santa Clause and selling Christmas craft stuff. How many small kids are model railroaders? How many model railroaders go to a train show to buy Christmas crafts ? That show is no more and the sponsor couldn't figure out what happened. Nope
Les
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#19
We used to do a "hobby" show. We gave up after:
-- we were located near a RC racing car track that used real dirt.
-- the kids had these toys that whacked together and made firecracker loud bangs.
-- no real railroad dealers went.
David
Moderato ma non troppo
Perth & Exeter Railway Company
Esquesing & Chinguacousy Radial Railway
In model railroading, there are between six and two hundred ways of performing a given task.
Most modellers can get two of them to work.
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#20
This was my blog entry on this topic from way back in 2007 at the other forum.

I'm getting tired of train shows. Want to know why? Read on.

I recently attended a Great Train Expo in Ridgefield, WA, at the Clark County Expo Center. Parking was $5, and admission $9. And once you were inside it was another $3 to let your kiddo bounce in the inflatable train bouncehouse. Outside there was a neat gas-powered train on rubber tires for parents and kids for $3.50.

We rode the train, and my 3-year old was not scarred for life by not getting to go in the bounce house. I told him "It's the principle of the thing, kid." and "You'll understand someday." A quick diversion away from the bounce house and he was happy looking at something else.

Then there are the dealers. I did buy a kit for myself and my son helped me pick out another 1:20.3 car for our Xmas tree train. He's got a good eye, as he picked a Bachmann Big-Hauler Emmett Kelley Jr. Circus Combine. It looks splendid behind our ET&WNC livery ten wheeler and matching combine.

But I refrained from making other purchases, even though they were great deals I would have loved to have had. Why? Because the dealers themselves looked like they slept in their van the night before and hadn't shaved in a long time. Or, they were making disparaging comments about products to folks who I could tell were newbies to the hobby by their questions. Well, potentially newbies, if said dealers didn't scare them off.

The dealers I did support were nicely dressed, clean and presentable. They weren't loudmouths and they were courteous, almost to a fault. One was a hobby shop owner in Camas. When I paid, he invited me to stop in the store if I'm ever down that way. I certainly will if I ever am. They paid money to exhibit at that show, and I paid money to get in. We'd better have a good interaction to make it worth both our dollars and time.

And their displays were well lit, well organized, and even their used merchandise well displayed. Versus other dealers with the typical assortment of tyco, etc. (with a few hidden gems within, if you know what you're looking for...a minefield for a newbie, goldmine for the experienced modeler) sprawled out on a folding table.

Oh but wait, there's more! In part II, I'll discuss the layouts.


Galen
I may not be a rivet counter, but I sure do like rivets!
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#21
(Part II)

Then there were the layouts. When I was in marching band, we recognized a rating system for contests - Superior, Excellent, Good, Fair, and Poor. Let's rate the layouts/clubs, shall we? The best-in-show by far with a strong Superior rating was the Z scale group. Following close behind, also with a Superior was the Large Scale group. There were no Excellents. The N-scale group gets a 'Good'. The HO groups fared worst of all, with Fairs and Poors.

Now they're all winners because they participated. But we knew in band that the groups or individuals receiving Fairs and Poors sure felt like losers. But what separates the categories? Here are my criteria for judging.

Were there trains running? The Superior groups had trains running constantly, and spread around the layout so that no matter when you approached it and from what direction there was action. The HO and N groups did not have trains running when we first got there. It appeared that some technical glitch was stopping the running which brings us to...

Was everything running smoothly? This is where the Z scalers edged out the Large Scale group. The large scalers had a few loco and rolling stock issues, which when coupled with a lack of attention (possibly due to the large layout?) made for some locos-pushing-cabeese situations. The N and HO groups were still fiddling with track and wiring, etc. holding up the whole shooting match.

Did they interact with the public? Here's where one HO group lost points then gained them back. The layout featured printed 8-1/2x11 signs all around the backdrop with various "can you find the..." questions. Fine. But what shot it down were the phrases like "Trains are like Wives, if it ain't yours, don't touch it!" and a drawing of a voluptuous woman reclining along with the text. I'm sorry, but that barely belongs on a bumper sticker. IMO, it's crude and unneccessary. If your members want to joke about such things after the club at the local pub, fine, just leave it out of the general public, especially with kids around. That goes for the "Can you find the naked sunbathers" question too. Tasteless and worn.

Now that same group was the only one at the show to invite me to their club open house and meetings. The fellow doing it wasn't running a train (I hope) and was almost apologetic in his approach. But most of the members were too busy fixing things on the layout or rerailing derailed cars or griping to each other within earshot of the public, to actually smile at you - the best interaction you can offer. They weren't smiling because it was obvious they weren't having any fun. That goes for many of the dealers too.

The N scalers came close to an excellent but got edged out due to a particular problem with their layout - access. There was a turnback curve that created a traffic jam for viewing the tiny trains, especially with a wiggly three year old in tow. PLUS, their layout was one sided, that is, only one main viewing aisle. Kudos for their mainline grades, however.

What was NOT a criteria was modeling skill. I recognize there are veterans and novitiates alike in the same club. I'd hope there are so some of that valuable modeling skill can be passed on to the next generation. BUT, improvement was something I looked for, especially since I had just seen all of these groups less than a year ago. Some layouts actually looked worse. I can accept a work in progress as long as it's neat and presentable.

One HO club was working (re-working?) a yard there at the show and it was a disaster area of track, tools, etc. As my Disney castmember friend would say, "that's just bad show". Always put your best foot forward and never settle for mediocrity. Even a beginner can have a great module if he or she is willing to accept the standards of the club for presentation (cleanliness, painted sub-scenery, etc.) and operation.

I've been involved off and on with a club for a few years, and been to train shows throughout that time as a member and attender. And I'm getting tired of paying way too much to park, get in, and look at the same old crap shuffled around dingy tables by dirty dealers time after time. I have come to expect, sadly, the same level of mediocrity from the same old clubs.

I had hoped it'd be different up here in Washington State, but it's the same old show anywhere you go. I'd rather spend the money for parking and entry fee on shipping and handling or even gas to get me to my LHS 50 miles away. I can order just about anything online and if I really want the used schlock on the dingy tables I can get that on ebay. The shipping ain't that bad when you consider the alternative.

Galen
I may not be a rivet counter, but I sure do like rivets!
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#22
Dear Galen
Thanks for your observations, mine are nearly the same, but having close friends involved in a club, I can see another side.
Most of the show organizers used to cover some of the fellows expenses going to and from the shows, even to the point of supplying hotel accommodations. They knew that the layouts were a draw and wanted them there for that reason. They also made sure there were adequate lighting and wiring so they could get set up in a reasonable amount of time. They donated money to the clubs to help defray the cost.
Most of that is not done anymore. They are lucky to get free admission.
Most of the club members are over 60 years old, the young guys aren't into trains, and what young people get in the clubs have other obligations and can't make all of these shows or the monthly organizational meetings, even though they would like to participate.
There is way more to it than meets the eye.
As for the merchandise, these fellows have traveling expenses and licencing costs just like a LHS, and they feel they are justified in charging retail prices because of that. I doubt any of them have liability insurance like a LHS so their arguments are flawed. Travel expenses for a few weekends a year do not come anywhere near costs to run a brick and mortar store, and I see better deals there.
Anymore, if you want a deal, go through the Internet.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Charlie
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#23
Charlie,

Your pretty much on the money from my experiences. I can't say weather or not that in the case of the Great Scale Train show aka Timonium that they cover the expenses of the clubs that bring in the large modular layout as they also have a lot of smaller portable layouts such as switching layouts, small n and z scale portable self contained layouts etc. Some guys are there to hawk their products but some are there just for the sheer enjoyment of sharing their love of the hobby.
In regards to pricing sure there are a great number of dealers who do the show circuits who give you no better pricing then you can find on the internet or in the LHS. There are always the exception to the rule. I have haggled in a friendly way with some of the larger dealers and if they refuse to come down in price or at least add something to sweeten the pot I thank them and walk away. What usually works if you pull out a roll of the green stuff and hold it right there in front of them like a Shark tasting blood in the water they usually can't resist.... 357 In the case of the Timonium show you have a nice mix of both private or small time dealers and the larger vendors or company reps. present so you have a vast pool to shop in. I do much prefer the small local shows where it's the guy like you and me either trying to sell off some of his excess equipment or has decided to switch railroads or eras and is moving out all his equipment to make room for new. Such was the case this past weekend for me. I went to a local show where I have always come home with great deals. A few years back I picked up 100 Proto 1000 100ton coal hoppers for $1 a piece . So what the sequence of numbers repeated it self every three cars. For a dollar I'll remove the numbers some day and put new ones in their place. I made the rounds of the show this past Sunday and was quite disappointed
in the lack of deals and things that were even worth buying. I spotted a sign that said more vendors on the 3rd floor. So when I got there a lot of the same junk that was down stairs was up there EXCEPT! Worship Worship a guy looking to get rid of his own personal equipment as he was going to build a whole new railroad. He had all good stuff and we did a lot of friendly chop busting back and forth and I came home with a BLI Paragon M1 that is in like brand new condition. For $125.. Cheers I was so tempted to go to the ATM on the way home and turn around and go back but didn't. When I got home and showed the wife and told her the price. She said wow that was a steal (she knows what these things sell for so no sense in trying to pull the wool over her eyes) She said why don't you go back you have a couple of hours til it ends. I said no I did good enough, next thing I know she is handing me the phone, she looked up the promoters number off their web page and dialed it for me. At least try and find the guys number. Well he knew exactly who I was talking about and he put me on the phone with the guy and I'm going to his house this weeks to pick up four more engines. Your not going to get that kind of personal interaction with the big vendors at the shows or by dealing with any internet store.
For me the hunt for the deal is only half the fun but when you come home with that big score they can't knock the smile off your face for a week.
I reject your reality and substitute my own
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#24
I have already put in my 2 cents but as I was reading the last couple of comments I got to thinking. How hard and expensive is it to do a train show? Now if I were to do it I think I would ask other modelers what they look for in a show and try to do what they suggest. Also it would be a train show not a toy show or craft show.
Les
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#25
Sorry for the lengthy post earlier, but I'm glad it sparked some good thoughts.

I used to be part of a modular club that still makes the rounds and I was the youngest guy in the group (I'll be 35 in May). I enjoyed the camaraderie and the chance to run long trains. I also enjoyed the (mostly) free admission to the shows.

Went to the club meeting last time I was in town and the room was full but once again, I was the youngest one there. It very well could be that in 10 years time I'll visit a club meeting and see alot of guys my age. That is, as folks reach a different stage of life (kids in school, more personal time) they may become naturally more involved.

But train shows throw a wrench in those works. The last show I attended in Puyallup was a WGH on Tour show, I think...or was it a Great Train Expo...anyway, there were loads of young parents (wives too!) with kids, boys and girls. They were lined up to ride a great big radio controlled Thomas the Tank Engine. My 5 year old rode it three times.

These folks aren't at the NMRA meetings. I'm the youngest one in the room there too. These folks aren't on the layout tours - mostly gray haired men there.

The younger folks will go to a train show because it gets main stream advertising and their kids are into Thomas the Tank Engine, or the latest one from Disney, Chuggington. Dad may have had Tyco trains around the Xmas tree, or played with Uncle Bernie's Lionel at Xmas, or maybe just has a mild interest. But there's a disconnect somehow between model railroad clubs, the NMRA, and younger modelers.

I know I'm making pretty sweeping generalizations here, and there are exceptions to the rule, but somewhere along the line there's a gap in the rail and the current ain't flowing. I have great hopes for the hobby in general, but organizations and institutions that can't adapt will fade away. I'm not sure how to fix this, or even if it needs to be addressed, but it's worth noting that the young families are attending the train shows. We in the modeling 'fraternity' better have our best foot forward and a smile on our faces as we meet the next generation of modelers at these events. The same old stuff ain't gonna cut it.

Galen
I may not be a rivet counter, but I sure do like rivets!
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#26
Galen,
I don't know about everyone's feelings on this line, but here are some more of my opinions, not good ones either.
When I was painting the SW-7 for the LBCV Railroad (full size) I had 4 very reliable helpers and we got the job done. None of these helpers, nor I, were members of the "historical society" that was going to run the railroad. There were 140 members of this group, of all ages.
When the prep work was all done I was presented with several paint diagrams that were the "winners of some contest. I told them that the member that did the most work could chose the scheme, and since there was no one that did any work, I selected the colors and the paint. At that point I was kind of angry with them all. We worked 20 hours a day for the last 4 days to get the job done, and finally had help putting the lettering on.
The model railroad clubs around here, and historical societies, always have some great people, but there are always a certain few that think they know everything, are rivet counters, (The war reenactors call them stitch counters), and want to run the show. I don't want or need to associate with these people.
I'd rather do my own thing and meet with my friends that are there when we need each other.
The people I mean are the ones that have to be 10 feet in front of the photo line when a steam engine does a run-by so they get the best picture, and theirs always is the best because nobody is blocking the view.
These people are the ones that ruin the train shows too. They are obnoxious, overbearing, rude, self-centered,and many times are unwashed clods that think they are God's gift to the industry. They are legends in their own minds.
I'd just as soon stay home.
Charlie
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#27
I can say what I've noticed as being three biggest problems with the younger generations is:

1. Video Game and gadget technology

2. Job demands for higher education

3. Parents lack parenting

Those being the huge barriers. I'll sum up what I'm saying since I don't want to write too much early in the morning.


1. Since most kids these days have an attention span of a gnat, brought on by technology like the internet giants like myspace/facebook/youtube and cellphones. As for computer and game consoles, it does provide the latest tech for in depth and attention grabbing experience out of other hobbies. It's the competition these days and trains can't hold up against them.

If you wanted to dig into a new hobby/interest and had model railroading on the list what would you rather play with? Trains or Lincoln Logs, Trains or silly putty/slinky/play doh, Trains or video games/internet... The model hobby is not as portable as the others, and kids these days with simplicity, portability, and the wow factor.

2. Jobs are getting harder to get into since the college craze started back in the Clinton era. Now a many number of companies assume the greatest requirement is having a bachelors degree, no matter what the position, this includes running around looking for parts in a warehouse. Now this affect forces kids out of high school to achieve college, in which kills more time and money to enjoy other things. On the other side, getting a higher paying job is not there anymore unless you have 4 years sunk into at school, and even that has failed since they now have fast track schools where you can get a BA in a year and a half.

3. Parents these days tend to forget at their kids, or so it very well seems, keeping them busy so they can do their own stuff. Best way to do it is to give them a video game, throw money at them (which I see the most) to shut them up. They don't spend time with them, and when they do it's not enough.

One of the most disgusting things I've seen is parents that force they're old interests in their kids, and they get repulsed by it, best example is sports. The more I've been to kids baseball games the more I see parents being the ones active and the kids not wanting to be there, The term living through your kids comes to mind.
Tom

Model Conrail

PM me to get a hold of me.
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#28
tomustang Wrote:I
1. Since most kids these days have an attention span of a gnat, brought on by technology like the internet giants like myspace/facebook/youtube and cellphones. As for computer and game consoles, it does provide the latest tech for in depth and attention grabbing experience out of other hobbies. It's the competition these days and trains can't hold up against them.


Some of what you said here is true. But you have to look at the history of model railroading also. Model railroading has gone up against some stiff competion in the past. First, it was the automobile. then space and rockets, slot cars..Girls?. Everytime a new fad comes along that attracts the attention of the young, model railroading has still sustained a presence. Sure it has its ups and downs, but after the wheels fell off the slot cars, the fins broke on the model rocket, and the girl...became my wife(then ex-wife?), model railroading was always there. When this electronic phase of the world passes, model railroading will still be there.
We can only hope that we'll be around to see it.
Torrington, Ct.
NARA Member #87
I went to my Happy Place, but it was closed for renovations.
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#29
Cheers Cheers There is indeed a staying power to model railroading like nothing else in the hobby world.

Ditto also to the comments about parents & parenting. My wife and I may be 'old fashioned' compared to many of our peers, but we spend time interacting with our kids and for me (and sometimes her) that means playing trains with the boys (among other things like pushing them on the swingset). My youngest (almost 1-1/2) has been playing with his brother's and now his own wooden trains and just the other day figured out how to put track pieces together.

But that's another side of the hobby that has been championed by Lionel, really, even caricatured by Lionel, that of boys and dads playing together. Ironically, it's the baby boomers, those kids who snuck their lionel catalogs to school, who are one of the most narcicistic generations. It was the boomers who thought kids 'cramp their style'. This could have something to do with the indifference shown by many older folks in the hobby to folks my age (their kids age). They are happy to do something with the grandkids, but often complain about their kids...and sometimes rightfully so.

The trend Lionel began continued into the 80's, as I recall a picture of the 'Carbondale Central', Malcom Furlow's urban bent-figure-8 beginner layout on the cover of Model Railroader. Right smack in the center is a dad looking over his son's shoulders as the kid runs the trains. Was this really happening outside of Waukesha, Wisconsin, in the real world? Or was this more propaganda built on Lionel's ideals?

Sorry this drifted away from train shows, but I think the ideas are inter-related. And I really do believe there is a great future for the hobby and it's a great time to be in the hobby and sharing it with kids.

Galen
I may not be a rivet counter, but I sure do like rivets!
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#30
I think it depends on what region you live in.

Up here in Ontario, there seems to be several big shows every year. By big I mean big regional shows, 1000 - 1600 people over a weekend.
I know that is small compared to the WGH on tour shows. But when you have one every 6 weeks or so it makes a difference.

They are all similar, but some put focus on different areas.

The last one I went to was Barrie (mid-Feb.). It was large, 1600+ people, scales from N through G and even a live steam display.
The vendors ranged from serious model railroad vendors such as myself and Hobby-Work, the local Micro-Mark dealer. There was a fellow selling railroad art and one selling prototype memorabilia. Down to a guy with old junk on a table for flea market pricing, to a guy with old boks and videos.

But now much information.

The next one April 10-11 is in Lindsay, a smaller venue, but well attended, they put more emphasis on inforation. The local NMRA folks will be there and will put on seven clinics to help educate model railroaders.

Most try to limit the junk and toy dealers as we have several quality vendors in the area.

Other big ones are in Midland in May, Bracebridge in August and Brampton in September. As well as the big Toronto one in Dec.
Will Annand
CVR in N Scale
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