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1 1.69%
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The future of model railroading.
#76
Interesting point, but a diesel will never move me the way one of those giant steamers will when it thunders by. The steam locomotive is the Cadillac of railroading, while the diesel, despite it's pretty paint scheme, is the Ford pick-up truck. 8-)
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#77
Awwww, now that's a case of beauty being in the eye of the beholder. Even controlling for color I find this gorgeous! Goldth
[Image: IMG_0791.jpg]

Tyson: "Look a steam engine!" Misngth
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#78
My point exactly Ralph, a lot people think that IS a desiel just because it is black. On the other side of the coin we have the beautiful Southern Pacific Daylight Steamer and most thought that was a desiel because it is so colorful. Of course not all steamers were black but that is just what most people seem to think.
Mike

Sent from my pocket calculator using two tin cans and a string
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#79
Tyson Rayles Wrote:"I think the biggest reason for the focus on transition era to now is the difficulty in engineering a decent running steam engine. In addition, the difference between a diesel engine on Say the NYC and the Santa Fe is paint and location of a few details. On the other hand during the steam era, each railroad had there own designs for steam engines, and they often didn't resemble each other."

I diragree with this. Steam engines all look alike, yeah some are longer or shorter or have more wheels or less wheels but they are all black and therefor all look alike. That point was driven home to me by people visiting a Lionel train museum I work at. In talking with them I was amazed by the fact that the most of them assumed that any engine that was black was a steam engine. Icon_lol Diesels took a dull somewhat depressing industry and turned it into glorious technicolor with their rainbow of paint jobs. Most people don't notice the details only the big picture and their eye isn't attracted to a black steam loco if there is a deisel parked nearby with the BNSF pumpkin or Seaboard citrus or whatever paint sceme on it.

Except in Britain, they used a variety of colours on their steam engines -- the LMS had maroon/red (i.e. Princess Elizabeth); the LNER had bright blue (i.e. the Mallard), apple green (Flying Scotsman) and gray (Silver Fox, etc.); and the GWR and Southern had various shades of green. There were even other types of blue and red used by different railway companies. Generally, freight locos were black while the bright colours were reserved for passenger trains.

Having said all this, I still think steam engines are 'way cooler than diesels, no matter what colour you paint 'em! Smile Goldth
Rob
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#80
Rob I was refering to the USA and even here we had steamers that weren't black. In the earlier days of steam a lot were not black but by the turn of the century most were here in this country. I also agree that steam is more interesting to watch running and that most RR's feel that a steam engine has "soul" were as a desiel doesn't. I'm the more practical type I guess, to me I like to watch a steamer running only if someone else is paying the bills ! Icon_lol
Mike

Sent from my pocket calculator using two tin cans and a string
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#81
I think my main point about steam was that I suspect that many model railroaders are like me. They would like steam, but getting a model that runs decently and pulls a real looking train is either impossible, way too expensive, or requires me to re-engineer the model to get it operating properly.

My diesels, I just put on the track and run. If they don't pull enough, add another one and mu it just like the prototype.
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#82
Russ Bellinis Wrote:I think my main point about steam was that I suspect that many model railroaders are like me. They would like steam, but getting a model that runs decently and pulls a real looking train is either impossible, way too expensive, or requires me to re-engineer the model to get it operating properly.

My diesels, I just put on the track and run. If they don't pull enough, add another one and mu it just like the prototype.

I agree Russ and in my case I like short lines with the track down in the dirt. If you do that in N scale it's about impossible to keep the pilot and trailing truck wheels on the track.
Mike

Sent from my pocket calculator using two tin cans and a string
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#83
Tyson Rayles Wrote:Rob I was refering to the USA and even here we had steamers that weren't black. In the earlier days of steam a lot were not black but by the turn of the century most were here in this country. I also agree that steam is more interesting to watch running and that most RR's feel that a steam engine has "soul" were as a desiel doesn't. I'm the more practical type I guess, to me I like to watch a steamer running only if someone else is paying the bills ! Icon_lol

Sure, I was pretty much writing "tongue-in-cheeck." I'm a diesel fan as well. If I were the head of a railroad or one of the crew, I'd use diesels -- they're obviously a lot more practical and low-maintenance! (Can't believe I just wrote that! Eek Eek :mrgreen: )
Rob
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#84
Russ Bellinis Wrote:I think my main point about steam was that I suspect that many model railroaders are like me. They would like steam, but getting a model that runs decently and pulls a real looking train is either impossible, way too expensive, or requires me to re-engineer the model to get it operating properly.

My diesels, I just put on the track and run. If they don't pull enough, add another one and mu it just like the prototype.

I disagree with the generalization. I think both steam and diesel models have their share of "dogs". Proto (and other makes) cracked gears, anyone? Six axle trucks that derail or have blind wheels so wide they short at turnouts?

That said, it is simpler (and therefore likely to be somewhat cheaper) to make a good performing diesel model than a good steam model. After all a diesel is a shell over a frame with 2 trucks, a double-ended motor, universal links and 2 gear towers. On steam models, the valve gear and side rods are more moving parts to go wrong. And pilot and trailing wheels take a little effort to get to perform well on ridiculous radius curves. But the Bachmann Spectrum 2-8-0 is just as good and consistent out of the box as a Proto-something with 6 wheel trucks. And there are other good steam models from Spectrum, BLI, and MTH.

Regardless of steam or diesel, a new, quality, nicely-detailed model from China is going to cost more than a C-note - and often more than several C-notes. Because of price and era, very little current production is going to be bought by me. So I'm more willing to compare apples to apples in the market. A 30 year old Athearn BB will definitely run out better out of the box than the Mantua/Tyco or Bachmann standard steam models. The better Chinese-made steam production didn't start until the late '90s. Blackstone has done very high quality Chinese builds for HOn3 - and chased MMI out of HOn3 because of the better out-of-the box experience. Of course, there are no diesels to compare in HOn3.

Feel free to disagree. I gave my analysis, and so far I'm sticking to it.
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#85
pgandw Wrote:The better Chinese-made steam production didn't start until the late '90s. Blackstone has done very high quality Chinese builds for HOn3 - and chased MMI out of HOn3 because of the better out-of-the box experience. Of course, there are no diesels to compare in HOn3.
Feel free to disagree. I gave my analysis, and so far I'm sticking to it.

There are a couple of 4-wheel HOn3 diesel kits, and there are 3' gauge diesels, but yes, to my knowledge there are no RTR models of these available to compare.
I did go so far as to model an HOn3 Gas Electric, and it usually runs fairly well....the chassi is a modified N scale diesel.
   
The Gas Electric, with its maximum "load", a combine, and a coach.
   
We always learn far more from our own mistakes, than we will ever learn from another's advice.
The greatest place to live life, is on the sharp leading edge of a learning curve.
Lead me not into temptation.....I can find it myself!
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#86
I just love things like that Pete! Cheers But alas, while you got the gauge right ya still got the scale wrong! Icon_lol
Mike

Sent from my pocket calculator using two tin cans and a string
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#87
Sumpter250 Wrote:
pgandw Wrote:The better Chinese-made steam production didn't start until the late '90s. Blackstone has done very high quality Chinese builds for HOn3 - and chased MMI out of HOn3 because of the better out-of-the box experience. Of course, there are no diesels to compare in HOn3.
Feel free to disagree. I gave my analysis, and so far I'm sticking to it.

There are a couple of 4-wheel HOn3 diesel kits, and there are 3' gauge diesels, but yes, to my knowledge there are no RTR models of these available to compare.
I did go so far as to model an HOn3 Gas Electric, and it usually runs fairly well....the chassi is a modified N scale diesel.

You are right, I did mean RTR. But I love your examples. And to add to the list, beyond the Grandt diesel kits, there have been brass models made of the WP&Y shovel-nose. There have also been conversions of standard gauge diesels available from time to time. There is some thought that a standard gauge conversion could be a relatively inexpensive way to get started in narrow gauge. And of course, HOn30 took narrow gauge diesels to another level, using N chassis and free-lance bodies. On30 has followed the same path with conversion bodies for Bachmann mechanisms. I've also seen conversions of the Egger-Bahn HOn30 Plymouth to HOn3 - MR even had an article about it.

A good starting point for a Class A Climax model is a diesel-style mechanism, as Roundhouse so famously proved. I've often thought of using portions of the NWSL Keystone Shay mechanism as the starting point for a semi-scratched Class A Climax.

just my thoughts and experiences
Fred W
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
Chief Engineer, Wiper, Bottle Washer, and Jack of All Trades for:
Picture Gorge & Western Railway - HO
Port Orford & Elk River Railway & Navigation Co - HOn3
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