Posing A Question About THe Hobby

[Russ Bellinis]

This comment is somewhat "off topic", but this topic may have already been run into the ground. Charlie B mentioned the reviews as free ads in the magazines. I had naively thought that the reviews featured objective analysis of the products reviewed by the magazine until I started reading the "new generation" Scale Rails published by the NMRA and edited by Stephan Priest. I was surprised to discover that most of the locomotives and rolling stock that they have tested in the past year FAIL to conform to NMRA standards in at least 1 or 2 of the measurements. This included some pretty expensive models of steam engines as well as diesels. It may not be a big deal to regauge wheel sets on a diesel locomotive to get it to conform to NMRA standards, but regauging a steam engine to make it conform may require requartering as well. When was the last time anyone read of a model tested in any of the model railroad magazines that didn't meet NMRA standards. The standards have nothing to do with how closely the model replicates the prototype. They have everything to do with how well the model will work when put on the model railroad and used in a train or pulling a train. The only standard I've ever seen noted in a model railroad mag test is whether a piece of rolling stock is weighted correctly or not and how hard it would be to add the appropriate weight to the model.

[Lester Perry]

I feel I am a successful model railroader. I have taken part in open house schedule in my area and have had people return year after year to see what I have done. I have received phone calls from people desiring to see my layout because someone told them about it. I am telling you this not to blow my horn but to say I haven't subscribed to MR mag for several years and haven't purchased one over the counter for a long time. It seems such a waste of good money to me. Very rarely does it present anything new in layout design. The new product reviews are lies as they request a product from a manufacturer for review. Now if I were naive I would think they get one off the shelf from LHS. Pack it up untouched and send it to them. In reality they would do what you & I would. Get one from their selected best. Go over it with a fine tooth comb. repair any potential problems. check anything that is a known problem ( These reviews are never 1 or 2 months after the product is introduced but usually a year or more.) The manufacturer has had time to find problems from cutomers. They can repair known trouble before sending it to MRR. You must remember who advertises in these mags. Now want a real review. Come here and ask about it. someone has bought one and can give you an unbiased opinion. I have run on now and forgot why I even wrote this. Maybe you can figure it out.
Les

[Sumpter250]

If you look, you'll soon realize that MR only reviews products advertised in MR!
I'll ask the "stupid question", Do you think for a heartbeat that MR will give a negative review of anything advertised by them?

[MountainMan]

I feel I am a successful model railroader. I have taken part in open house schedule in my area and have had people return year after year to see what I have done. I have received phone calls from people desiring to see my layout because someone told them about it. I am telling you this not to blow my horn but to say I haven't subscribed to MR mag for several years and haven't purchased one over the counter for a long time. It seems such a waste of good money to me. Very rarely does it present anything new in layout design. The new product reviews are lies as they request a product from a manufacturer for review. Now if I were naive I would think they get one off the shelf from LHS. Pack it up untouched and send it to them. In reality they would do what you & I would. Get one from their selected best. Go over it with a fine tooth comb. repair any potential problems. check anything that is a known problem ( These reviews are never 1 or 2 months after the product is introduced but usually a year or more.) The manufacturer has had time to find problems from cutomers. They can repair known trouble before sending it to MRR. You must remember who advertises in these mags. Now want a real review. Come here and ask about it. someone has bought one and can give you an unbiased opinion. I have run on now and forgot why I even wrote this. Maybe you can figure it out. Les

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No question about it, Les; you make excellent points. I am very selective about buying magazines, choosing only the ones I want as a potential reference on something. (For the life of me, I can't remember what I was thinking when I got this one - maybe I was just bored and the wife bought it...?)

The real reason I read any of them, however, is twofold:

1. To occasionally keep abreast of what is being offered in my scale by way of new products, with the knowledge of what you have pointed out in the forefront of my mind - biased product reviews - and

2. Primarily to see what other modelers are doing. I'm not able to travel a lot, and I'm geographically isolated, so I use magazines to stay aware of what other modelers do and how they do it, by which I mean the vast majority of modelers everywhere else but on this forum. We have some very talented members, but they are not by any means the sum total of the modeling skills of everyone in the nation, and I from time to time come across articles showcasing the fine work and innovations of others. Granted, a lot of it is repetitious at times, but you need to open a thousand oysters to have even a hope of finding a single pearl.

I probably wouldn't have minded the professionally built layout in the recent MR if it had followed the usual format and actually told me something about techniques, tips and tricks involved,following the standard magazine layout presentation. Instead, it was a fluff piece, not even up to the usual standards.

[Squidbait]

BAH! It's all crap! MR is a sellout! If you can't take the time to build it yourself, you're a collector, not a modeller! If you can't even build an Athearn shake-the-box kit, or lay flextrack, you shouldn't call yourself a model railroader - you're just a wannabe!

Real model railroaders build their own benchwork.
Real model railroaders lay their own track.
Real model railroaders don't use sectional track - especially the girly stuff with the built-in roadbed.
Really real model railroaders handlay their track.
Real model railroaders don't buy pre-weathered RTR rolling stock.
Real model railroaders never build a kit exactly to the instructions.
Real model railroaders know MR sold out to the advertisers years ago, and drove the real model railroading magazines under.

There. I said it. So take that all you RTR EZ-track ready-built/custom-built snaptogether model railroading wannabes!

[e-paw]

That gave me a good laugh.. I like your thinking. The only thing is that this post is starting to remind me of the one with the government funded light .

[MountainMan]

BAH! It's all crap! MR is a sellout! If you can't take the time to build it yourself, you're a collector, not a modeller! If you can't even build an Athearn shake-the-box kit, or lay flextrack, you shouldn't call yourself a model railroader - you're just a wannabe!

Real model railroaders build their own benchwork.
Real model railroaders lay their own track.
Real model railroaders don't use sectional track - especially the girly stuff with the built-in roadbed.
Really real model railroaders handlay their track.
Real model railroaders don't buy pre-weathered RTR rolling stock.
Real model railroaders never build a kit exactly to the instructions.
Real model railroaders know MR sold out to the advertisers years ago, and drove the real model railroading magazines under.

There. I said it. So take that all you RTR EZ-track ready-built/custom-built snaptogether model railroading wannabes!

********************************************************************************************************************************************

Real model railroaders have little bitty choo-choos on their sheets and pillow cases.
Real model railroaders don't own any clothing without a real railroad logo, especially not underwear.
Real model railroaders only eat food that is transported on real trains.
Real model railroaders don't own cellphones - they use whistle signals instead.
Real model railroaders don't go to hobby shops - they mine and refine their own materials like real men.
Real model railroaders make their own benchwork from real trees. Store-bought lumber is for wimps.
Real model railroaders generate their own electricity. Using wall outlets is for sissies.
Real model railroaders never eat quiche because they can't recreate it in scale.
Real model railroaders don't use soldering irons - they get hot under the collar instead.
Real model railroaders hand lay real track using real spikes. The little stuff is for kids.
Real model railroaders don't use track plans. The train goes where it is told.
Real model railroaders never "weather" anything - they leave it outside until it looks right.
Real model railroaders know that there is only ONE scale - 1:1. Everything else is just toys.
Real model railroaders break up rock with sledge hammers to make their own ballast.
Real model railroaders never read instructions - real men don't need to read anything.
Real model railroaders know that "kitbashing" is how real men make things fit together no matter what.
Real model railroaders know that a "delicate adjustment" tool is a five pound sledge hammer.
Real model railroaders never force anything - they just hit it harder.
Real model railroaders know that if it breaks, it wasn't made right in the first place.
Real model railroaders don't use fake coal - they crush real coal with their teeth.
Real model railroaders never use that sissified fake grass - they pull out their own hair and use that.
Real model railroaders doesn't go to church - they pray alongside the tracks.
Real model railroaders tattoo their layout name and trackplan on their chests.
Real model railroaders never buy cemetery plots. They get buried on abandoned right-of-ways instead.
Real model railroaders never read hobby magazines. They already know everything.
Real model railroaders don't need pin-pictures - they strip down a piece of rolling stock and drool on the bare chassis.
Real model railroaders don't have sex, because careless collisions can damage delicate equipment.
Real model railroaders don't have sex; they just stop at the service pit and get their ashes hauled.
Real model railroaders don't belong to clubs - clubs are for girls.
Real model railroaders never post photos of their work. If they built it, it's good enough.
Real model railroaders only watch railroad shows on television. They only watch the news if the train crash is big.
Real model railroaders never go to the movies. There aren't any trains in the movies.
Real model railroaders only travel by train. If no train goes there, what's the point?
Real model railroaders never fly. God invented trains first, and they don't trust anything that doesn't run on tracks.
Real model railroaders don't eat - they just shovel in enough fuel to make it to next stop.
Real model railroaders never sleep - they "lay over".
Real model railroaders don't care if anybody else knows what a real model railroader is, because either you are or you aren't, and the ones who aren't don't matter.

Gee...I feel better too! tooges:

[bob_suruncle]

On the topic of whether or not Model railroader should do articles on contractor built layouts.... tough question....

Let me throw out a few thoughts: A number of years ago I was involved in a small way with a group of about 6 model railroaders building a custom layout for a rather wealthy gentleman. The layout was very well done and looked amazing and would have probably been well received in MR because it was built by model railroaders.... however... Calling the gentleman who purchased said layout a model railroader would be completely inaccurate. He actually contracted a guy to come in and clean his track regularly and service the rolling stock. For it to be a hobby you need to be involved in it. The layout in question was a novelty for the first few weeks and then it sat dormant for years until the gentleman decided the space was more suited to a pool table or wet bar or something. The same guy who arranged the original build was then contracted to come in and get rid of it... after various attempts to sell the layout as a whole it was disassembled.

So although Squidbait went off on a slightly tongue in cheek tangent he was in some ways correct that really model railroaders don't buy complete turnkey layouts IMHO. However the layout(s) in question, although they are built for profit, are generally built by skilled model builders and I can certainly enjoy looking at their work and getting some ideas from their build.

Parting thought: The concern here seems to be that articles on contractor built layouts are nothing more than glorified advertisements. The Franklin and South Manchester has graced the pages of MR on numerous occasions and George Selios is an amazing model builder but one could argue that the articles on the F&SM were glorified advertisements for his Fine Scale Miniatures line. If all MR articles were of contractor built layouts I would certainly start to wonder about the effectiveness of the magazine to build the hobby but throwing one in from time to time doesn't bother me.

The sad thing is that contractor built layouts are very much like the rest of this and most other hobbies in that people want instant gratification and their attention spans are 3.8 seconds long as they flit from one interest to another as they lose interest and their wallet allows.

As an aside; I would be embarrassed to have my layout in MR if I didn't build it myself.

[Squidbait]

As an aside; I would be embarrassed to have my layout in MR if I didn't build it myself.

Bob's a Real Model Railroader! He can't even spell RTR!

[Brakie]

As an aside; I would be embarrassed to have my layout in MR if I didn't build it myself.

Bob's a Real Model Railroader! He can't even spell RTR!

Well,I can't spell RTR either..

Still I am not a real model railroader!!!! :o

[BR60103]

Now is this any different from the fellow that builds a layout and then runs all RTR stock on it? Or one who commissions a loco?
Since the owner of the layout in MR is a CEO, he may not want to put his spare time into the carpentry and plaster side of things this year -- maybe he wants to run trains. I don't know if this is very different from an article on detailing a Bachmann RTR diesel.
However, he will not get many points in an NMRA contest.

[MountainMan]

On the topic of whether or not Model railroader should do articles on contractor built layouts.... tough question....

Let me throw out a few thoughts: A number of years ago I was involved in a small way with a group of about 6 model railroaders building a custom layout for a rather wealthy gentleman. The layout was very well done and looked amazing and would have probably been well received in MR because it was built by model railroaders.... however... Calling the gentleman who purchased said layout a model railroader would be completely inaccurate. He actually contracted a guy to come in and clean his track regularly and service the rolling stock. For it to be a hobby you need to be involved in it. The layout in question was a novelty for the first few weeks and then it sat dormant for years until the gentleman decided the space was more suited to a pool table or wet bar or something. The same guy who arranged the original build was then contracted to come in and get rid of it... after various attempts to sell the layout as a whole it was disassembled.

So although Squidbait went off on a slightly tongue in cheek tangent he was in some ways correct that really model railroaders don't buy complete turnkey layouts IMHO. However the layout(s) in question, although they are built for profit, are generally built by skilled model builders and I can certainly enjoy looking at their work and getting some ideas from their build.

Parting thought: The concern here seems to be that articles on contractor built layouts are nothing more than glorified advertisements. The Franklin and South Manchester has graced the pages of MR on numerous occasions and George Selios is an amazing model builder but one could argue that the articles on the F&SM were glorified advertisements for his Fine Scale Miniatures line. If all MR articles were of contractor built layouts I would certainly start to wonder about the effectiveness of the magazine to build the hobby but throwing one in from time to time doesn't bother me.

The sad thing is that contractor built layouts are very much like the rest of this and most other hobbies in that people want instant gratification and their attention spans are 3.8 seconds long as they flit from one interest to another as they lose interest and their wallet allows.

As an aside; I would be embarrassed to have my layout in MR if I didn't build it myself.

Why...if there is nothing wrong with the practice? :?

The most interesting thing about this whole discussion is the apparent confusion of people who see nothing wrong with it or with publishing it in a hobbyist magazine. but would "never do it themselves".` Either it is acceptable or it isn't. It's pretty hard for it to both simultaneously.

[doctorwayne]

The most interesting thing about this whole discussion is the apparent confusion of people who see nothing wrong with it or with publishing it in a hobbyist magazine. but would "never do it themselves".` Either it is acceptable or it isn't. It's pretty hard for it to both simultaneously.

Not really: I can appreciate that some people like skydiving, but I wouldn't do it myself.
Similarly, some people may like some aspect of model railroading, but not have the talent or ability, for whatever reason, to create it themselves. That doesn't mean that they won't enjoy it, in their own way, even if it entails simply admiring it, as they would a painting.

Your original comment, at the start of this thread, was concerned with the presentation of the layout, and your feeling that it was more akin to advertising than what we've come to expect when a layout tour is presented.

Starting on page 52 of the Feb '09 Model Railroader is a presentation of a layout titled Steaming Through The Winter Wonderland. It is a nice layout, but it wasn't built by the owner; it was commissioned from Raildreams, Inc., a commercial firm.

My feelings are that this isn't a proper display of a layout made by an owner or club, but essentially amounts to advertising for the company that did all the work. From a modeler's viewpoint, I'm uncomfortable with the way this was presented, but maybe I'm too much of a purist.

I'm interested in the opinions of other members.

I agree with your assessment of the article, but, as much as the owner's methods run contrary to my own thoughts on layout construction, I cannot fault him for making the decisions about this that he did. The fault, if any needs to be assigned, is with the method of presentation. Since it has upset you to such a degree, it may be more productive for you to write to Model Railroader, expressing your concerns.

Wayne

[Sumpter250]

   

A Woodland Scenics "Scenic Ridge" N scale layout kit.
When I worked at the hobby shop, my coworker and I built this for a customer. He enjoyed spending his money, and we enjoyed building the "layout".
it was a "win" for us, and I guess it was a "win" for him.     this is a sample of the rock detail he bought.

[Catt]

Ok guys I have a question for all of you.

What gives any of you the right to tell somebody else how to enjoy their hobby? I mean afterall it's their hobby it is not YOURS.You have your own.