KISS or take no changes
#1
I am testing with some unmodified Atlas #6 turnouts (#0505, #506), Atlas flextrack and some Caboose ground throws the best track plan for my new layout.
I am astonished how solid the test operation is over switches without the usual wires to feed the switch blades and with dead frogs. The ground throws are no problem as everything is easy to reach.

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I have from my last layout my Tortoise switch machines and the Digitrax DS64 ready for installation. I am also willing to add the tiny jumper wires to the switch blades and connect the frogs to the switch machine.

But is that really necessary? I did it on all previous layouts because it is recommended and it looks like everybody does it. Do I have simply luck with the quick and dirty approach of unmodified Atlas #6 switches? Will I face massive problems when dirt, dust and glue from ballasting creeps into the switches and isolate the switch blades? Will the dead frog be never a problem for contemporary layout (GP15,38,40 …. etc)?

Living under the layout for some days to do possible surplus and overdone wiring would be some burden I would like to prevent as I am getting older.

I would like to read about your experience.
Reinhard
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#2
Universal Rule Number whatever: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Corollary: the more complex an item, the higher the probability it will fail when most needed.

Therefore: KISS.
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#3
I moved one step further to KISS and replaced the Caboose ground throws with a U-shape bend spring wire to operate the switches. Looks better and want to know if it works reliable too.
Your experience and comments are welcome.
Reinhard
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#4
While i have some Walthers/Shinohara, Peco, and Micro Engineering turnouts, most of mine are Atlas #6s. Other than a few which had too-high frogs (a few passes with a mill fill solved that) they've been trouble-free, and none have needed to have the dead frog energised. I run steam, too, which can be more finicky than diesels.

Most of mine were operated by Caboose Industries ground throws, but many have been converted to the less-visible bent-wire spring.

Wayne
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#5
Reinhard, I'm going to talk straight from the heart based on my 62 years of experience.

There is a lot of BS spilled forth by so called "experts" that has complicated this hobby over the years and that BS has been back by wanna be experts. I never found the need to follow this "expert" advice.

I have never had a powered frog in my 62 years in the hobby and never had stall issues and this will include brass switches with oversize rubber frogs, brass track and locomotives with brass wheels.All of this goes against the grain of "expert" advice about the evil of brass track brass wheels and insulated rubber frogs..
None of my past ISLs had blocks nor bus wire with feeders since I found it wasn't necessary. Wiring overkill is not a good thing simply because the more wires you add the higher risk of problems cropping up. I never found the need to solder the rail joints.

As you know my thing is slow speed switching on a ISL and I been doing just that since I built my first switching layout back in the early 60s.. I switched to Peco insulated frog switches on my second Slate Creek ISL because Atlas was having issues of keeping track in stock.

KISS is my mantra because that goes hand in hand with my "If it ain't broke stupid, don't try to fix it".
Larry
Engineman

Summerset Ry

Make Safety your first thought, Not your last!  Safety First!
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#6
Thanks for the feedback. I intend to proceed with the KISS approach for the next time. Ballasting the tracks will not happen soon and I have plenty of time to test the KISS approach intensive. I will move to the full approach if I encounter problems with the switches prior to ballasting.
ps. We are talking about seven switches in the very easy to access foreground. That make the risk manageable.
Reinhard
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#7
Be careful with the buss/feeder wires issue. An ISL is a long way way from a full layout and requires a lot less wiring to energize a lot less track.
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#8
Reinhard Is building a nice ISL and I see no reason for wiring overkill at this point. Even a 4x8 will require nothing more then a good MRC powerpack or a very basic DCC system.

Now a Godzilla size basement filler will require bus wires and feeders .
Larry
Engineman

Summerset Ry

Make Safety your first thought, Not your last!  Safety First!
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#9
The tracks and switches are ballasted now. It went quite well with two observations:

a. I tried to protect the joints of the blades from the glue (white glue, water and detergent). That failed. The glue creeped up but it did not interrupt the electric connection. Lots of worry but no problem at all.
b. I assumed no mechanical problems but the lack of a powerful switch machine made it clear how much glue interfered with the simple mechanic. It toke about 10 minutes per switch to remove all set glue to get a smooth operation with a simple over center spring. All switches in perfect maintenance location at the layout front!

Summary: It work fine at the afternoon after ballasting.
Let’s see how things develop over time.

Anyhow I do not recommend it for larger and more complex layouts. It would also not use it with other than robust contemporary HO diesel engines.
Reinhard
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#10
faraway Wrote:....I assumed no mechanical problems but the lack of a powerful switch machine made it clear how much glue interfered with the simple mechanic. It toke about 10 minutes per switch to remove all set glue to get a smooth operation with a simple over center spring.....

Reinhard, a good way to prevent ballasting glue from interfering with turnouts is to put a little plastic compatible oil on the ties over which the points move, then move the points back and forth a few times to spread the oil. Do this after the ballast is in place - otherwise, the ballast will stick to the oil. Before spraying with "wet" water, park the points at mid-throw, so that they're not touching either stock rail - if the operating spring is in-place, use bits of styrene to prevent the points from moving towards the stock rails. Apply the diluted glue mixture, then allow it to completely dry before removing the styrene blocking.

Wayne
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#11
You should not need to have live frogs on your turnouts. We use live frogs on all of our switches in the modular club because we have some Thomas and friends trains for the kids to run and be entertained. Since Thomas is a very short wheel base locomotive, it would stall on a dead frog. If all of your locomotives have a long enough wheel base to always have at least one axle picking up power on live rail, you should not have any problems. A quick test is to park a locomotive with the frog centered underneath. If your wheel base is long enough to straddle the frog completely, you don't need live frogs. If you have an 0-4-0 saddle tank switch engine that was a popular engine in train sets in the 1960's, you would need a live frog. I think even a Bachmann 44 tonner has enough wheelbase to use a dead frog.
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#12
Russ, I fully agree. The discussion is about a month old and I built and operate the layout in the meantime with dead frogs (and over center string hand thrown switches) every day without problems. It is amazing how much nasty over head, under layout work was saved with that decision.
Reinhard
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