Island layouts

[MountainMan]

How to fit a layout into this nightmare of a layout room. :? I am considering converting the walk-in closet to my workspace.

[steinjr]

How to fit a layout into this nightmare of a layout room. :?

It would be hard to beat the suggestion Charlie made back in March - a 2.5 by 6.5 foot table pushed all the way into the corner between the closet and the rightmost wall of the room, joined in a sort of L shape with a 5x7 foot table located sort of in the middle of the room, far enough away from the closet doors to give access to the closet (and to give access to the right side of the 5x7 table and upper side of the 2.5x6.5 table)

Rounded corners of tables where a sharp corner would hurt to run into.

Scenic divider from upper left hand corner of 5x7 table down to middle of rightmost 2.5 x 6.5 foot table. One layout scene on the rightmost 2.5 x 6.5 foot table, one scene in lower left hand corner of 5x7 table, one scene in upper right hand corner of 5x7 table.

Hmmm - wait - do the math actually add up here ? Your sketch doesn't start the room height at 0 - it starts at 1 foot. Let me do a little testing of the math.

Okay - something along these lines - rightmost table is 2 x 7 feet, leftmost 5 x 5 feet - feel free to adjust it in any direction that seems sensible to you with regard to aisles and reaches.




Possibly two or three staging tracks on a narrow shelf down along the rightmost wall, to the right of the door - six 40' cars only take about 18" of space in N scale.

There isn't a lot of other ways to do a sensible table setup in this room.

Smile,
Stein

[MountainMan]

Tell me about it...

Thanks for the input. I'll factor that in and keep mulling it over. I keep having this nightmare feeling that I'm wasting a lot of space. :?

[steinjr]

Tell me about it...

Thanks for the input. I'll factor that in and keep mulling it over. I keep having this nightmare feeling that I'm wasting a lot of space. :?

The objective does not have to be to fill the room with layout. Your stated objective was to to fit in a layout into the room, without too badly compromising other uses of the room (access to bathroom, window, patio doors and closet). If you need access to all those doors and windows, then you pretty much need those aisles in Charlie's proposal (as in my first drawing).

But if the real objective is to totally minimize space used for aisles, then just block the all doors and windows except the hallway door, put a liftout or swing gate by the hallway door and create e.g. an around the walls layout with a central peninsula like this:



One aisle in the middle of a walk-in layout (from which you can access the layout on both sides of the aisle) tends to take less space than putting an aisle around on three sides of an island layout ....

If you decide that you don't need access to all those doors and windows, or if you can drill a hole in the wall into the closet and use the closet as part of a layout, then state your new design objectives clearly and take another swing at it.

Grin,
Stein

[doctorwayne]

Tell me about it...

....... I keep having this nightmare feeling that I'm wasting a lot of space. :?

I think that we all have that nightmare, MountainMan, but the aisles shown in the sketch are really pushing the "narrowness" limit. If there's anyone likely to be using that room, even simply passing through, that approaches the "wide load" description, you may be wise to "waste" even more layout area for aisle space. Just because someone can squeeze through doesn't mean that they can do so without causing damage to the layout.

Another thing to consider is aisle widths in conjunction with your mountain scenery (and layout height, too). With narrow aisles and a high (eye-level) layout, or mountainous terrain at any similar height, the room could become somewhat claustrophobia-inducing.

If you're planning on using the closet as a work space, consider placing your staging area there, perhaps on a shelf. Of course, you'd need an access hole through the wall, but it wouldn't need to be large, and could be easily repaired if the need to move ever arises.

The aerial tramway sounds like a good idea for the scenario you've described - I recall seeing something similar in RMC not too long ago.

Finally, as far as your layout ideas starting a "war", I don't see it as very likely, especially here. Even when folks use a trackplan from a book, and use only the same r-t-r stuff that's available to anybody, they still, somehow, manage to put their own personal "stamp" on it. After all, every layout, I think, is the artistic expression of its builder. There's a guy near me modelling Area 51 - certainly not my thing, but then again, it's not my layout, either, nor my place to criticise. Build what you like and enjoy it.

Wayne

[nachoman]

Some comments, if I may. That room is definitely a challenge. When I was consdering my layout space, I decided I needed a 2 foot pathway to get to the closet and the window (I am a thin guy). This basically meant I had to draw in a 2 foot buffer around the walls of the room, and that left a 4x8 foot rectangle. You could do the same. Is passage through this room vital to getting to other parts of the house or the patio, or to use the restroom? If so, you may want to make aisleways more generous than 2 feet. 30 inches is the standard interior door width. Will things ever need to be carried in and out of the house through this room? If that patio door is the only means by which furniture can be moved in and out of the house, you will need even more aisle room. I would start by deciding how much width you need for an aisle, and then buffer that distance from the hallway entrance, past the bathroom and window, to the sliding glass door and the closet. That will pretty much establish the maximim space you can use. It may seem like wasted space, but you don't have many other options if you don't want to block any doors or windows. You could consider some kind of moveable layout or modules.

[MountainMan]

Tell me about it...

Thanks for the input. I'll factor that in and keep mulling it over. I keep having this nightmare feeling that I'm wasting a lot of space. :?

The objective does not have to be to fill the room with layout. Your stated objective was to to fit in a layout into the room, without too badly compromising other uses of the room (access to bathroom, window, patio doors and closet). If you need access to all those doors and windows, then you pretty much need those aisles in Charlie's proposal (as in my first drawing).

But if the real objective is to totally minimize space used for aisles, then just block the all doors and windows except the hallway door, put a liftout or swing gate by the hallway door and create e.g. an around the walls layout with a central peninsula like this: Stein

Confuscious say cutting off doorway to bathroom bad idea. Confuscious also politely point out is RENTAL and hols in walls cannot be charged off to fieldmice.

I do not, however, have any problems sacrificing the use of the window if necessary, although it is major source of natural illumination. hat I can get arund.

[MountainMan]

Tell me about it...

....... I keep having this nightmare feeling that I'm wasting a lot of space. :?

I think that we all have that nightmare, MountainMan, but the aisles shown in the sketch are really pushing the "narrowness" limit. If there's anyone likely to be using that room, even simply passing through, that approaches the "wide load" description, you may be wise to "waste" even more layout area for aisle space. Just because someone can squeeze through doesn't mean that they can do so without causing damage to the layout.

Another thing to consider is aisle widths in conjunction with your mountain scenery (and layout height, too). With narrow aisles and a high (eye-level) layout, or mountainous terrain at any similar height, the room could become somewhat claustrophobia-inducing.

If you're planning on using the closet as a work space, consider placing your staging area there, perhaps on a shelf. Of course, you'd need an access hole through the wall, but it wouldn't need to be large, and could be easily repaired if the need to move ever arises.

The aerial tramway sounds like a good idea for the scenario you've described - I recall seeing something similar in RMC not too long ago.

It's not the trackplan that concerns me, but my intended layout. This is a very conservative crowd.

Finally, as far as your layout ideas starting a "war", I don't see it as very likely, especially here. Even when folks use a trackplan from a book, and use only the same r-t-r stuff that's available to anybody, they still, somehow, manage to put their own personal "stamp" on it. After all, every layout, I think, is the artistic expression of its builder. There's a guy near me modelling Area 51 - certainly not my thing, but then again, it's not my layout, either, nor my place to criticise. Build what you like and enjoy it.

Wayne

This is a very conservative crowd, which has not shown itself too amenable to radically new ideas in the past, which is where modelers are firmly rooted in the first place.

I appreciate the thought, though.

[MountainMan]

Some comments, if I may. That room is definitely a challenge. When I was consdering my layout space, I decided I needed a 2 foot pathway to get to the closet and the window (I am a thin guy). This basically meant I had to draw in a 2 foot buffer around the walls of the room, and that left a 4x8 foot rectangle. You could do the same. Is passage through this room vital to getting to other parts of the house or the patio, or to use the restroom? If so, you may want to make aisleways more generous than 2 feet. 30 inches is the standard interior door width. Will things ever need to be carried in and out of the house through this room? If that patio door is the only means by which furniture can be moved in and out of the house, you will need even more aisle room. I would start by deciding how much width you need for an aisle, and then buffer that distance from the hallway entrance, past the bathroom and window, to the sliding glass door and the closet. That will pretty much establish the maximim space you can use. It may seem like wasted space, but you don't have many other options if you don't want to block any doors or windows. You could consider some kind of moveable layout or modules.

Or hang the whole contraption on pulleys from the ceiling...

Appreciate it, nachoman.

[steinjr]

The objective does not have to be to fill the room with layout. Your stated objective was to to fit in a layout into the room, without too badly compromising other uses of the room (access to bathroom, window, patio doors and closet). If you need access to all those doors and windows, then you pretty much need those aisles in Charlie's proposal (as in my first drawing).

But if the real objective is to totally minimize space used for aisles, then just block the all doors and windows except the hallway door, put a liftout or swing gate by the hallway door and create e.g. an around the walls layout with a central peninsula like this:

Confuscious say cutting off doorway to bathroom bad idea. Confuscious also politely point out is RENTAL and hols in walls cannot be charged off to fieldmice.

I do not, however, have any problems sacrificing the use of the window if necessary, although it is major source of natural illumination. hat I can get arund.

Then you just do the same type of planning - determine how wide aisles you need and where you need them to go, decide whether you are willing to have duckunders or lift-ups and remember that some factors are pretty much given, no matter how conservative or radical your thoughts are: the reach of human arms is fairly limited (even though you can make access holes in the layout to reach things from below or rig up some kind of ladder contraption to reach things from above the layout, at the cost of increased inconvenience in reaching things).

And you do something roughly along these lines instead:



Here I am also illustrating wider aisles - if you need wider aisles - you cannot make the central peninsula all that much wider from top to bottom anyways if you are going to be to be able to comfortably reach into it to work on things like switching, so you might as well use the space above and below for more comfortable aisles - especially if you need to carry stuff like garden furniture to and from the patio through this room.

I have also illustrated a couple of turnback curves with radius 13", which is well within the realms of doable for a mountain railroad with 1900s engines and rolling stock.

Incidentally, since you keep complaining about how other modelers are so conservative : layout design is a mix of engineering (which is a conservative discipline) and art (which is not). All engineering and no art makes a working, but dull layout. All art and no engineering makes a layout that cannot sensibly be built and operated.

It is e.g. not very hard to imagine a layout that totally fill all of the room, with just "gopher village" pop-ups to allow access for building and repairs, where you crawl on you knees on the floor under the layout on your way to the patio or the bathroom. It might not be totally practical, though

It is also not very hard to imagine a big layout that is suspended from the ceiling and can be lifted up when you are not running trains. However, it might happen that a landlord that will flip out at a small (and patched up and painted over) N scale RR tunnel size hole in the side of a walk in closet also would be somewhat perturbed at getting back a room where pulleys had been attached to the ceiling for the purpose of raising and lowering a layout. Also, the engineering of making a raise up layout that remains rigid, yet lightweight, is a little harder than making simple benchwork that remains in place.

Incidentally - it might not be a bad idea to cut one or two small holes through the lower side of the walk in closet (such holes can easily be patched up again and camoflaged by a fresh coat of paint) to put some of your layout along the back wall of your walk-in closet, in effect making the layout H-shaped.

It is also possible to do things like make your layout in sections, so one or more sections can be lifted out to access stuff you only need to access infrequently. If you e.g. only need to use the patio door very infrequently, it is possible to build sectional benchwork in front of the patio doors that can be taken down and stowed under the rest of the layout when necessary. Especially easy if the part of the layout you want to stove things under is on a shelf instead of on legs.

The trick is to find the right blend (for each of us) between the visionary and the practical.

It is not enough to just denounce conservative approaches. That's easy. The difficult part is to come up with some alternative approach that works better under some circumstances. Once you do that (if you do that), that approach will quickly become the conservative approach under those circumstances - that's how engineering works.

I hope some of the sketches I have shown you have given you a few new ideas. Even those of us (including myself ) who are firmly convinced that we almost always are outside-the-box thinkers sometimes can benefit from looking at a problem in new ways.

Grin,
Stein

[Brakie]

This is a very conservative crowd, which has not shown itself too amenable to radically new ideas in the past, which is where modelers are firmly rooted in the first place.

I appreciate the thought, though.

I don't think its conservative as much as it is "bigger is better" and "fill the room with a Godzilla layout" that we read about in magazines and layout books.

What it really boils down to is the modeler's skills,finances,time allotment and understanding their needs based on a attainable goal..We need to consider the operation-solo or group and ease of maintaining the layout-usually solo.

IMHO there is nothing as discouraging as finding we bit off more then we can chew in designing a layout-including a round the wall layout-with unattainable goals based on popular layout ideas.

A layout must meet the modelers needs and if it doesn't then its folly to build it.

[nachoman]

I considered pulleys, movable sections, modules and other creative ways of getting the layout out of the way. Sure some of those ideas could have allowed me to make a larger layout, and possibly even swap my guest room for my layout room. But, I decided those creative approaches infringed upon what was most important to me - dramatic vertical scenery. The reality is, I don't have a huge hobby budget, and the closest I have ever come to a "finished" layout was a 3x6 that I worked on for 5 years. I would much rather have a small layout that I can reasonably and affordably make it look complete than have a larger layout that is mostly bare plywood.

What sense would there be in making the largest layout you can fit into a rental room, and only just get past the track laying stage, only to find you have to move and tear it all down? It sounds to me like you have some pretty creative ideas that won't be realized until you get into the scenery stage. Perhaps you are a fast worker and get to that point quickly. I wouldn't feel so much like I am "wasting space" if i knew that I had prioritized my goals and I made the decisions appropriate to accomplishing those goals. Remember, you can always add on to a layout.

Now, as for the your "conservative crowd" comment - I understand. Unfortunately, that theme is true for many hobbies or groups. My experience has been this forum in particular is one of the least conservative around, and that is why I participate here the most. Most serious model railroaders would tell you to start with a particular time and place, and to use that as your inspiration. Anything beyond that four dimensional origin becomes difficult for most people to conceptualize. Your list of inspiration sounds to me like you want to add in and emphasize a fifth dimension - a philosophy. While it may seem like people are less receptive - it is because they don't fully understand, not because they necessarily disagree. If John Allen told people what his plans were, they probably would have been confused and had to restrain themselves from calling him crazy. But, once they saw what he built, it suddenly all made sense and John Allen was considered brilliant and innovative.

[Triplex]

I like Stein's idea. If the window can be blocked, you can get some room to run and fit the required mountain scenery. It's a somewhat unusual shape, but probably the only viable solution to the door problem.

[doctorwayne]

I think that Stein's latest layout suggestion addresses the issue of getting the maximum layout area into your available space, while at the same time satisfying all of your concerns about access to the various doors, and about maintaining the integrity of your rented space. You have already detailed your concept of what you want in the way of track layout and operation, so I see no reason for you to further pursue the island layout concept, as it cannot offer you the opportunities of the suggested arrangement.

I'm sure that as you move on to the trackplanning stage of construction, many will be equally as helpful with suggestions, if you require them. The space shown opens up all sorts of possibilities, but, hopefully, not so many that you become mired in planning to the detriment of actually beginning construction.

As for outside-the-box ideas and avant garde thinking, bring 'em on. You may be surprised by how well "conservative thinkers" can accept good ideas, as the operative part of that term, in my opinion, is "thinkers". Beyond that, of course, I can't imagine that anyone's contrary opinions of your ideas could possibly deter you, nor should they. It's your dream: now is your opportunity to build it. I look forward to following your progress, in both words and pictures.

Wayne

[Steamtrains]

I agree with Wayne....I spent several months planning & fidgeting & fiddlin' with the idea of setting up the layout in the garage. I even got to the point of chucking the garage idea and started to look into the possibility of using one of the spare bedrooms....Then, one Saturday morning...I got off my butt, went to HD, got me some lumber and sheet rock, disabled the garage door mechanism and removed it...walled up the garage door, and I had a layout room....
If you're like me, I tend to over-analyze things to the point where I don't get anything done.....There comes a point to where you have to say...."Let's DO it"....