Island layouts

[eightyeightfan1]

Gee...Whats up MM?
You keep talking about "conservative modellers", and new and inovative ideas.
I see a lot of folks here trying to help, and you keep saying "Not good enough". Besides...won't using a pulley lift system put holes in your rented ceiling?
You keep touting invoation....lets see you come up with some "inovated and out of the box" thinking.

If your looking for something that won't ruin your security deposit, maybe a modual type design would be more to your liking. Maybe something on casters so you can roll it out the U-Haul when the time comes for you to relocate.

[steinjr]

If your looking for something that won't ruin your security deposit, maybe a modual type design would be more to your liking. Maybe something on casters so you can roll it out the U-Haul when the time comes for you to relocate.

I expect 88-fan probably already knows this, but in case someone else isn't familiar with the difference between "section" and "module" :

A module has a standard edge profile with the track crossing the sides at fixed places, so the modules can be set up in random order and the tracks and edge profile of one module will still match up with the tracks and end profile of the next module, no matter which two modules are put next to each other.

Modules tend to take up more space than a custom designed layout, and tends to be less flexible than a custom designed layout - since they often are designed for some reasonably generous standard curve radius and some standardized type RR (e.g. with two mains across the front of all modules).

The great thing about modules is that if two (or ten or fifty) people all build one or two modules according to the same standard, they can get together in a school gym or some other big room and put those modules together to run on a big layout.

Like this one, from a H0 scale FREMO meet in Arendal, Norway in March 2008:



A section, on the other hand, doesn't put quite as many limitations on the track plan. A section is just a "chunk of layout" - it will only fit in the spot it was built to fit.

Building a layout in sections, so it easily can be disassembled into smaller parts for transport (without major trauma) is probably a good idea. From what I have heard, recommended section size is about 4 feet by 2 feet - something that size will fit through doors and around corners without too much struggle, even with a mountain on top of it

That's how I am rebuilding my own layout - split into seven sections (the seventh is the bridge scene across the door)


Here is an very-early-in-process progress picture of one of my sections (with the weights on top of it) after the basic framework for that 48" x 25" section has just been assembled:



If you build your layout in sections, the seams between sections has to be hidden - but it can always can be touched up and re-hidden after the layout has been relocated to a new home.

Of course - a sectional layout may not be totally reusable in a new home. If the room in the new home is significantly different in shape or size, you might have to replace some sections, change some sections or build some "bridge sections" between two old sections in the new home.

But for me the main advantage of sections is that each section can be taken out of the layout room and worked on separately - that is a big bonus when you have kids with allergies that react to paint fumes - I can take each section out to work on it in my shed outside.

Grin,
Stein

[foulrift]

I like this thread and I agree with Brakie 100%. When I was designing my layout with help from Stein,I already knew that 2'x8' would be the max size I could work with. Room size and location were not an option. Basement-very damp,living and dining room-no room. Only space left was my bedroom. It sits on top of my dresser. If sometime down the road I were to move and had the room to expand,I could do that but for the present my layout fits my needs and everything else that Brakie mentioned.
Just my opinion.
Bob

[Sumpter250]

Stein,
I always referred to my old 8' X 16' layout as "modular", built in 2' X 3'-101/2" "modules". In fact, it was really a sectional layout.
What I have now, are truly modules. The "new modules thread" takes three of the original sections, and moves the scenes to modules built to a group standard.
I went with the sectional, originally, because I was on active military duty, and moved every three years. The 3'-10 1/2" length was to fit in a plywood crate, made of two sheets of 4' X 8' X 3/4" plywood. ( I was trusting "lowest bidder movers" with the safe transport of my layout ).

Modular, or Sectional....take your pick, while having different purposes, can be useful for limited, or "difficult to manage" room size. Sectional, can be more easily incorporated into a permanent layout at some future time, and while "not a layout" in themselves, can in fact, be a useful means of building "that layout".
If nothing else, a section can be a "learning platform", a place to make all the mistakes and learn from them. A section, can more easily be "the victim of natural disaster", and rebuilt. Sections can remain up and connected, where they don't block doors, windows, bathroom access, etc. and the ones that would, can be moved, and stored under the ones that stay up. ( blocking patio doors in the dead of winter ) What can remain up, could have sufficient "operational features" to make up for the lack of "the loop".
A sectional layout may not be "the perfect layout', but it could be the perfect solution to the current restrictions, and become part of a larger layout when time and/or space allow.
It is said, by the wiser of us, that only two things are sure......Death, and Taxes.( We might, someday, actually cure death, there is no cure for taxes )There is one additional sure thing.................Time changes all.
A one piece large layout is a thing of beauty and pride. A sectional layout, adapts to that "third sure thing"......it can be moved, and it can change, with relative ease.

[MountainMan]

Gee...Whats up MM?
You keep talking about "conservative modellers", and new and inovative ideas.
I see a lot of folks here trying to help, and you keep saying "Not good enough". Besides...won't using a pulley lift system put holes in your rented ceiling?
You keep touting invoation....lets see you come up with some "inovated and out of the box" thinking.

If your looking for something that won't ruin your security deposit, maybe a modual type design would be more to your liking. Maybe something on casters so you can roll it out the U-Haul when the time comes for you to relocate.

This kind of comment is exactly why I am reluctant to discuss anything here. Sooner or later, someone finds a reason to become insulted.

I'm interested in practical suggestions to utilize the space that is available to me, not in discussing my personal philosophy of modeling. Is that open and honest enough for you, 88?

[doctorwayne]

To reiterate:

I think that Stein's latest layout suggestion addresses the issue of getting the maximum layout area into your available space, while at the same time satisfying all of your concerns about access to the various doors, and about maintaining the integrity of your rented space. You have already detailed your concept of what you want in the way of track layout and operation, so I see no reason for you to further pursue the island layout concept, as it cannot offer you the opportunities of the suggested arrangement.

You may not agree, but I doubt that any other suggestion will offer more layout space while still meeting all of your requirements. You can build it in sections if necessary, too. If you truly espouse innovative thinking, I'm sure that you can see that the plan offered is both innovative and practical. Otherwise, please state your concerns. I actually thought that your recent absence here meant that you were developing trackplans for the suggested design, rather than waiting for an opportunity to be petulant. (And my latter comment is posted here somewhat reluctantly, but you previously stated that I should speak to you within the forum rather than via PM.)

Gee...Whats up MM?
You keep talking about "conservative modellers", and new and innovative ideas.
I see a lot of folks here trying to help, and you keep saying "Not good enough". Besides...won't using a pulley lift system put holes in your rented ceiling?
You keep touting innovation....lets see you come up with some "innovative and out of the box" thinking.

If your looking for something that won't ruin your security deposit, maybe a modual type design would be more to your liking. Maybe something on casters so you can roll it out the U-Haul when the time comes for you to relocate.

This kind of comment is exactly why I am reluctant to discuss anything here. Sooner or later, someone finds a reason to become insulted.

Jeff, you can rise to the bait or rise to the occasion - it's your choice.

A lot of people here, including eightyeightfan1, have offered useful suggestions. You are intelligent enough to sort out those which are applicable from those which are not, and also to use your own ideas to perhaps build upon the good ones. You, as much as the rest of us, need to focus on the task at hand. Just because your original assumptions

The prevailing trend is to layouts along the walls of rooms, which seems limiting and appears wasteful of space. Does anyone have any experience with the opposite type, free-standing multi-form layouts that avoid the walls? I m not referring to the classic 4 x 8 beginner's layout, nor am I referring to the very sophisticated "mushroom" layouts. In my case, I'm trying to use a room with way too many openings in walls to make an along-the-wall traditional layout easy.

have been shown to be unfounded is not a reason to shun practical advice.

I'm interested in practical suggestions to utilize the space that is available to me, not in discussing my personal philosophy of modeling. Is that open and honest enough for you, 88?

You've been getting lots of practical advice - is none of it of use? Or do you merely wish for your friends here to jump through your suggested hoops, only to reject their performance?

And, yes, we were discussing your personal philosophy of modelling:

Steam circa 1900, standard gauge, short trains due to mountain grades. One mine, one factory and one town. Freelance, and well outside of the box.
Inspiration? Emmett Brown, Nikola Tesla, Jules Verne and Isombard Kingdom Brunel. I'm not very conventional.

It would be pointless for you to build a layout that did not take those factors into consideration. However, if none of the suggestions for layout size, shape, and location suits your needs, you should first perhaps utilise some innovative thinking to come up with something more appropriate, rather than wasting your energies in pedantry.
Then we can all move on to the trackplanning stage, where your modelling philosophy will come into play.
Were I faced with your layout room restrictions, my instinct would be to seize the best of the suggestions offered, expand on them if necessary, then get on with it. The hobby is model railroading not model dithering.

Wayne

[eightyeightfan1]

I'm not the one insulted.
If I was one of the folks that gave suggestions, and drew track plans (using the floor plan that you provided) then rejected by you..I would be insulted. I'd be asking myself.."Why am I wasting time with this guy? He's rejected everything thats been put before him." I'm just trying to point out that it seems like folks here, who help everyone with suggestions, ideas aren't good enough for you. I wish I had the floor space you have for a layout. I'm sure there's a bunch of folks here wish they had. I'm working in an attic. I have to deal with stifling heat, exposed roof joists and the nails holding the shingles in place. And when you are 6'2'' tall...Its not fun. But I'm dealing with it. Which makes my hobby fun.

You keep saying that the folks here are invoative and think out of the box enough for you. You seem to mention it in every thread and forum you respond. You seem to THRIVE on controversy. You keep saying that this board is not up to your standards.


Funny......You keep coming back.
Am I insulted?....No!
You just get on my nerves!

Is that open enough for you MM?

[tetters]

[MountainMan]

by Doctor Wayne:

You may not agree, but I doubt that any other suggestion will offer more layout space while still meeting all of your requirements. You can build it in sections if necessary, too. If you truly espouse innovative thinking, I'm sure that you can see that the plan offered is both innovative and practical. Otherwise, please state your concerns. I actually thought that your recent absence here meant that you were developing trackplans for the suggested design, rather than waiting for an opportunity to be petulant. (And my latter comment is posted here somewhat reluctantly, but you previously stated that I should speak to you within the forum rather than via PM.)

In fact, I have already come up with a way to double the space for my layout within the existing room, without covering any of the doors. I'll try to come up with a coherent track plan from this software - I'm a "little software challenged".

Thank you all for your advice and suggestions. Your personal comments are duly noted, DR.

[doctorwayne]

In fact, I have already come up with a way to double the space for my layout within the existing room, without covering any of the doors. I'll try to come up with a coherent track plan from this software - I'm a "little software challenged".

Thanks for your reply, MountainMan - that is exactly the kind of response which I was hoping to hear.

I'd be hopelessly lost with a computer drawing programme, being much more comfortable with a pencil and paper, and even then, my efforts would be confined to a couple of sketches. After that, I'd be off to get some lumber.

Thank you all for your advice and suggestions. Your personal comments are duly noted, DR.

If I have expressed myself well-enough that my intent and meaning were clearly understood as I had intended, then I am pleased to know that we remain on cordial terms.

Wayne

[steinjr]

In fact, I have already come up with a way to double the space for my layout within the existing room, without covering any of the doors. I'll try to come up with a coherent track plan from this software - I'm a "little software challenged".

The most blindingly obvious ways of doubling the space available for a layout is to build the layout in several levels above each other, linked by helix, nolix, elevator, manual cassette or just linked operationally (a train drives into staging on one level, similar train comes out of corresponding staging on next level, or engine shove RR cars into staging on one level, another engine pulls similar cars from staging on next level).

How to get more layout space by going multilevel is a different issue than how much of the floor space of the room you can use for a layout while still maintaining feasible aisles and reach.

If you have just rediscovered on your own the well known techniques in the first paragraph, then that is not that interesting. Those are all standard tricks, well within the box, for those who take care to actually explore the box of standard tricks before they declare that the box is too confining for a great thinker like themselves

But if you actually believe you have found a way to fit in a layout that will have a floor footprint double the size of my last drawing for you, while still maintaining feasible aisles and reach distances, I'd be most interested in seeing how you plan to "double the space for your layout".

Give me a clear verbal description, and I'll try to draw it up for you.

Grin,
Stein

[Spitfire]

Gee...Whats up MM?
You keep talking about "conservative modellers", and new and inovative ideas.
I see a lot of folks here trying to help, and you keep saying "Not good enough". Besides...won't using a pulley lift system put holes in your rented ceiling?
You keep touting invoation....lets see you come up with some "inovated and out of the box" thinking.

If your looking for something that won't ruin your security deposit, maybe a modual type design would be more to your liking. Maybe something on casters so you can roll it out the U-Haul when the time comes for you to relocate.

This kind of comment is exactly why I am reluctant to discuss anything here. Sooner or later, someone finds a reason to become insulted.

I'm interested in practical suggestions to utilize the space that is available to me, not in discussing my personal philosophy of modeling. Is that open and honest enough for you, 88?

Well, if you call people "conservative" and "boring", I don't think you should be too surprised if they are a little insulted.

I note that you have discussed your personal philosophy of modeling, thus inviting responses.

I note also, that while trumpeting your high degree of creativity, you are entirely relying on others' suggestions, and have yet to post any layout drawings of your own.

I would suggest that you consider something simple to start with, based on the fact that this is a rented space. The "beginner" 4 x 8 is something you can easily take with you if and when you move to a more permanent space, and can form the basis of a larger layout. If this is your first layout, then you are a beginner and you know what? There's no shame in that.

And remember, there's a difference between conservative and realistic.

Val

[ocalicreek]

The hobby is model railroading not model dithering.

I read this thread way back when the above quote was new, then just now reread the thread. The abrasive comments on this page gave me a bad taste then but I decided to just leave it since I agreed with the sentiment, that a person should just get on with modeling and do something, anything, to get up out of the armchair and get started.

But after revisiting the thread I had to chime in. I'm one of those 'model ditherers' from time to time. I'm also a person who likes to live in my head and chew on different ideas. Sometimes I get involved in these threads just to join in the discussion whether or not I actually will use any of the information at the time or ever - just sharing in the conversation is enjoyment enough.

So I resent & resemble that remark about model dithering. Just putzing around the train room is all I want to do sometimes and that's fine. I will encourage anyone to get up off their butts and do some modeling and sometimes I need that encouragement just as much as the next person. But don't be too hard on those of us who spend our time 'dithering'. Life gets in the way of the hobby sometimes.

Even the great John Allen went through periods of disinterest in the hobby; one such time he even considered ripping out the trains and taking up another hobby altogether! And this was a single guy with enough money to allow plenty of time for his hobby without family constraints, work load, etc.

Just my two cents, although that may not be worth much if you brand me a 'ditherer', with an opinion not worth considering. :ugeek:

Galen

[doctorwayne]

Galen, what you describe is not dithering - there's nothing wrong with taking time to enjoy the things which you've accomplished, or to consider new plans, or review past mistakes. I do lots of that - which explains in part why there's not much progress being made on my layout.
Dithering, in my opinion, is when you demand action or results, but are unable (perhaps unwilling) to act in a manner that produces the action or results desired. It could be a case of no viable options or too many choices being presented or just an inability to get moving. Some people spend a lifetime being armchair modellers and take great enjoyment in it. Others get bogged down in planning, often unable to come to grips with the limits of the space with which they're present, dreaming always of "what if". If you can't make "what if" happen, I suggest trying "just do it". The mistakes which we make in model railroading are seldom beyond repair, and the experience of doing, however difficult it may be to start, is not only a great teacher, but also a great way of inspiring yourself to tackle the challenges which arise.

Finally, I'm hardly one that could be accused of not considering others' opinions but that doesn't mean that I won't also offer my own. That it may be contrary doesn't mean that someone else's isn't valid.

Wayne

[Steamtrains]

I think "dithering" is an integral part of the hobby...It's a matter of degree - some dither more than others.....

My dithering concerns mostly when I'm unsure as to what I really want in terms of operations, looks, scenery, etc. Over this past month I've been trying out different arrangements for some industries that were not initially intended to go where they wound up...
By coincidence I was doing ballasting in part of the layout, and moved the structures that were in the way and just piled them at the end of the yard. Over several days, the "look" started to grow on me, so I made a half-hearted attempt at finding a proper arrangement for them. I "dithered" by placing them one way, and leaving them there for a few days....then changed the arragement again...and so on....After much dithering I found an arrangement that I liked and was functional. Last Saturday the dithering stopped, I ripped up and rearranged a couple of tracks at the yard's end....and placed the structures where they will reside from now on....

So, I dither, but in the end..I DO....